From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jan 25 09:08:44 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27E41106564A for ; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:08:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from davide.italiano@gmail.com) Received: from mail-vw0-f54.google.com (mail-vw0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2C378FC0A for ; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:08:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: by vbbfa15 with SMTP id fa15so1957992vbb.13 for ; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:08:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fTa/ucygukVGY5ZrnQjrNuxFL/JnqTkdt4iIY+ht5Ik=; b=h0+aDBfyjHNRuGnC6IcmTjW6zb+uXVpQ07dbbCMNBgtCh8o8p9welx6ld88BUzWwJO woSKinQxtNE4ld+bNrbrPhNac1SLA1jmCovGZIr9L9bAHTmLW5jkW4ocutPS3q4wys5q CErwT00oh4xidlhjj5GpVt7VQjJhzIReF5/tg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.33.68 with SMTP id p4mr8351330vdi.52.1327482523006; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:08:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.181.199 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 01:08:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20120125072809.GA11115@lonesome.com> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:08:42 +0100 Message-ID: From: Davide Italiano To: Arnaud Lacombe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Mark Linimon , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:08:44 -0000 On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 9:58 AM, Arnaud Lacombe wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 2:28 AM, Mark Linimon wrot= e: >>> I might just be also interested to review/comment code, discuss >>> regressions, and architecture, for a change ;-) >>> Unfortunately, such threads rarely ever happen. Most of the time, the >>> only food provided is a really indigestible +5000/-3000 patch, where >>> all the thinking, architectural design and code has been done behind >>> closed door of a limited few committers, research lab or company. >> >> That's odd. =A0What the src committers usually tell me, when I have my >> bugmeister-advocate hat on, is that they post patches and then no one >> comments until after they check them in, at which time they complain. >> This discourages them from going through this the next time. >> > exactly my point, huge patches are impossible to review. > >> You will also note that some of the large commits say "MFp4" or "MF: >> ". =A0That means that either our Perforce repository, or >> SVN project/ directory, were used as staging areas. =A0It's possible to >> subscribe to these email messages. =A0(Exactly how is left as an exercis= e >> for the reader; the hour is getting late.) >> > that is indeed a good source for having a look at early-alpha-WIP stuff. > >> As for the research lab/company commits, I'm sure you'd complain equally >> if the code that these groups develop in-house and then release when it'= s >> in some kind of stable state, instead didn't get released at all. >> > I see company contributed code as ad-hoc solution to the company's > problem, not general solution for the whole FreeBSD userbase. To make > a comparison with Linux, it is just as if Google got all the Android > code merged in mainline as-is, without re-working anything. It did not > happen that way. Much of their code had (and still has) to be > re-designed, abstracted, and adapted to fit the general-purpose > mainline. > >> But, of course, I'm wasting my time trying to give you reasoned argument= s >> about why FreeBSD does one thing or another. =A0AFAICT you're only inter= ested >> in spreading FUD about what we do, how we do it, and what we say about i= t >> before, during, and afterwards. > > is this FUD: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=3Dkern/160992 ? > is this FUD: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=3Dkern/156540 ? > is this FUD: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=3Dkern/156799 ? > is this FUD: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2011-Sept= ember/027400.html > ? > is this FUD: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2011-Dece= mber/030076.html > ? > > answer to all the above: no, this is bugs, regressions, and mis-design > you folks introduced, not me. Don't blame me to point it out. > >> You seem to be obsessed by picking over >> semantics and finding shortcomings to be aggreived over. >> > Semantics and proper, independent, API are crucial. > > There is tons of ad-hoc code in FreeBSD which should be properly > generalized. The most silly example I can think about is > `time_after()', defined in . This has > _nothing_ to do specifically with IEEE802.11, it's about time > manipulation. Feel free to search the tree, there is tons of > potentially unsafe, open-coded version of this macros. Call it > nit-picking if you want, but when I write code, I want an API to use, > I'm fed up to always have to re-invent the wheel. > > Btw, I do not even speak about some functions in the kernel > re-implementing the exact same logic +10 times in a row, one after the > other, within the same function body... > > For the story, I've been hacking tonight in Linux... a pure pleasure, > real tough to get to, but really enjoyable. > >> Whatever patches or review you've contributed to date, to my mind, are >> like the last tiny little bits of onion that are left over after one pee= ls >> off all the outer layers. =A0There may be something to it, but the effor= t >> to get down to that point is so painful that it's not worth it. >> >> tl;dr: your drama outweighs your contributions. >> > I already commented on this. I'm no longer interested in getting my > stuff integrated in FreeBSD. I put it on github, eventually send > patches on MLs, then you do what you want with it, I no longer > particularly care. I know some patches are used around, that's enough. > I did my time fighting committers to fix their not-so-bugfree code and > won those battles, that's enough for me. > What I'm completely missing is the reason why you're repeating "this is my last word" or "that's enough for me" or $THATSALLFOLKS_SENTENCE, but you continue adding some Gaussian noise on the MLs w/out a valid reason. If you enjoy other projects, go there. But please, don't piss off. > =A0- Arnaud > > ps: I have a particular appreciation for this PR, a feature praised by > users, and no committer dares to care: > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=3Dkern/161553 ... silly. > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org= " Davide