From nobody Mon Jan 29 10:50:05 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TNlSP0RMRz58SQ5 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 10:50:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olce@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TNlSN6qm2z4tyb; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 10:50:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olce@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1706525413; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=66EJovFA1jwP+WZZDYz540LSk8dXIdD9vQmO/qrbI3A=; b=k1yuFGaAzUYd21BdoTtJNb+MQrPrEyoITBwCU0QtYZ5fSuZKMCAlbYidOaLrWy8OP7d4UG LJ9UHeNqULUhXIZppNFTEMOlzxCkmKXiiZj/5vTh+XZWJEa88xfN26MSIzJGfU/SOKVAS0 OQtStXaXYIElz9R0OuB7AuIypuhlpE2GnlObFGeiNrwgaYsEC8H9fpo8RlKfAqjZgraACs 5NBJzqiSwhl6i564l4SM4lcjUooNV7PiO+/R7N8qL1RbPopqMatUwRv4YOgBHBbIo4jGsn WVGGwwPChjHhLPPLW5UJi01z87KqXz1QjjaO7+FRn29rFddhMbD14/XHvr/+nA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1706525413; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=66EJovFA1jwP+WZZDYz540LSk8dXIdD9vQmO/qrbI3A=; b=tkx+wIvzfBu2efKN4Yez+7IWdj2CT6FVfXTgntoHErlz62nZ23ZTpefc2pFlqEl2o8J9Qa WS42WhRvhygjZWrq95K/zVS5mHqVqQc8WgaXRsGyXiWfZ/9nHgk0th9h/9s3x797lf/DjL mRo/jhV/4qXNDBpG+/3hrORrG58nXJ6j+igfEBFeGcBz4N8//nVo30cV7IWPQKVgmDxB1B 1cA6sN4ZfpN5wCd/UnCe6RfWAzyXCvPq+VzCGHE3bskx9mszkHxzs1/cPxOYAH5J00zzC6 6+jOMLSetPgOa0Q5YNA4pMpg803X805NIA+R2mrprdktCo5Q+8zkFLbDOk2r5w== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1706525413; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=qfvIXFsBImwP6F5ZHm8RMoWcdD2YMTmbpuq2atz2oUs7H5ufBdDfOZ61WWqDfXDK8CRafB mxFxHBnz4UWVD0ig5BLvB5K+BGUj5GpMNBH0lZ5yK1VvTI29JIxvYFVBjNWMTimVdfLY8d cRNQxw63HivwIgBU341wtoXfwtkrobUNFpaXw4fIqzLBs4pSrfKAerPeIb1vFNYeSQN4tY 63Kmic0jVylX+FasriE8V5rXClE89ajCz5l5bmE2uBNxApJJqMLqWyRoRx6Aj4dxqv8FV/ WGOBsQSym+DNcVklO42HzQCO9eMeJL/RzxT7jN41KuHql5sXvcTlnOFss8TfkA== Received: from ravel.localnet (lfbn-nic-1-525-172.w90-118.abo.wanadoo.fr [90.118.140.172]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: olce/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4TNlSN3bPNz18Dx; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 10:50:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olce@freebsd.org) From: Olivier Certner To: Chris Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: noatime on ufs2 Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2024 11:50:05 +0100 Message-ID: <11453367.ZaXhgXhNnV@ravel> In-Reply-To: <9155214edb61b1bc3bad3bc96f96e22b@bsdforge.com> References: <6714298.qJWK8QVVMX@ravel> <9155214edb61b1bc3bad3bc96f96e22b@bsdforge.com> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart2621567.ixSHFKNIK3"; micalg="pgp-sha384"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" --nextPart2621567.ixSHFKNIK3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; protected-headers="v1" From: Olivier Certner To: Chris Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: noatime on ufs2 Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2024 11:50:05 +0100 Message-ID: <11453367.ZaXhgXhNnV@ravel> In-Reply-To: <9155214edb61b1bc3bad3bc96f96e22b@bsdforge.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi Chris, > Honestly! Gosh... This doesn't start well. > Why do we have to upend decades of usage and understanding? Just > because it's old doesn't mean it's wrong. Who says that exactly? Separately, in case you haven't noticed yet, some things have changed in the past 50 years... > Several weeks of replies confirm my initial > belief -- atime as it is currently implemented, is as it should be. Several weeks? The first mail was sent on January 7th, my first intervention about 'noatime' being the default was on the 9th and your mail is dated the 16th. I would suggest that you revise your implementation of access times. > I haven't seen anything in this thread that wouldn't be better placed in > tuning(7) or tunefs(8). It's not really surprising since, given what you said before that, it seems that you haven't really paid attention to the messages exchanged. > Security and forensics are good reasons to keep atime unchanged. Having access times maintained may occasionally provide a bit more information, especially against script kiddies. But if you think it's a reliable source of information, you're deluded. See my response to Lyndon about the general problem with access times. I also already talked about auditing's needs in my very first mail in this thread. > Any discussion regarding changes to it's current behavior seems folly or bikeshedding. About bike shedding, see my recent response to Mark, it applies to "folly" as well. > Apologies for the "attitude". Yeah. Most prompts imagined by Poul-Henning Kamp in his bikeshed email would have applied perfectly to your message. Thanks for the thought. -- Olivier Certner --nextPart2621567.ixSHFKNIK3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. 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