From nobody Mon Jun 16 09:26:05 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bLPkt26nRz5pgQ0 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 09:26:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from phk.freebsd.dk (phk.freebsd.dk [130.225.244.222]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bLPks58qGz3Lgv for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 09:26:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (unknown [192.168.55.3]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange x25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by phk.freebsd.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06B8DB0A1B; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 09:26:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: (from phk@localhost) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.18.1/8.16.1/Submit) id 55G9Q5mn021498; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 09:26:05 GMT (envelope-from phk) Message-Id: <202506160926.55G9Q5mn021498@critter.freebsd.dk> To: Konstantin Belousov cc: Jamie Landeg-Jones , jgopensource@proton.me, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A modern programming language for FreeBSD: Swift In-reply-to: From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" References: <202506152335.55FNZJjr066895@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-ID: <21496.1750065965.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 09:26:05 +0000 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bLPks58qGz3Lgv X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:1835, ipnet:130.225.0.0/16, country:EU] -------- Konstantin Belousov writes: > IMO Jamie deserves the gratefulness and encouragement for the work done, > and not the naive sarcasm due to some missed wording. The wording is not a problem. But the Silverbulletism=E2=84=A2 the wording signals is a warning sign that mandatory homework has not been completed. (Not handing in homework is known to cause sarcasm.) As a reminder, the homework is this: A) Does the imagined benefits derive from the proposed language itself or from other software in the ecosystem around the language ? B) Does upstream even want FreeBSD to import/integrate ? C) Can the proposed language's compiler and runtime be sensibly imported and maintained in FreeBSD's source tree and bmake build technology ? D) What /new/ things will the proposed language allow us to do ? E) What is the FreeBSD killer-feature/application of the proposed language= ? F) Quantify the risks. Notes: A: FreeBSD cannot import ecosystems, only compilers and (sensible sized) r= untimes. D: Pointing to rewrites of trivial existing programs will be scored negati= vely. F: Risk =3D probability times consequence. Amongst the risks for the FreeBSD projects are things like "nobody can maintain this", "nobody wants to maintain this", "nobody knows how to maintain this" and "upstream changed their mind in a way which is incompatible with FreeBSD's inclusion", "upstream fizzled out", "upstream split into multiple different directions" etc. -- = Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe = Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence= .