From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Thu Aug 16 03:01:35 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16EBB107A6A0 for ; Thu, 16 Aug 2018 03:01:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.130]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass DE-2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 896B28AB51 for ; Thu, 16 Aug 2018 03:01:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([92.195.8.32]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue006 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 0LpDlp-1gJzeA30Zp-00fAlG; Thu, 16 Aug 2018 05:01:23 +0200 Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 05:01:22 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Mason Loring Bliss Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hello... Message-Id: <20180816050122.f37f7953.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20180816014844.GB18637@blisses.org> References: <175f53e88fb5ebf26527882827080cd7@cannabis.fr.pl> <20180815182210.GA23701@sh4-5.1blu.de> <20180815185702.GA8882@sh4-5.1blu.de> <20180816014323.b6325a66.freebsd@edvax.de> <20180816014844.GB18637@blisses.org> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:NsobtnMbaISgy4K0M0Lo4/ugRClhOfZiKyvMST666DTnNxaYISJ 8zed3tTdaYIuIzml5DIHvDgtCYWhlMYgkyanPmveXjLyiup07lzAxcWic+frEAISHd2dUd9 aqNQJQWNS2phb4v2kFLDDvzxDz9LTn8PtftyWqROK3zfI7i6QMnZhumvV+Ne7gshH6juNWr qlIDcbWi4hwYH7VNqXiuQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:hKIAifw33F8=:d14YGqk1UDhm+Rp9apFzTZ bbZ0DiTC3yoSCLPojKQh+8wsYy/Ad1E0DhKO56iPXUwn0NgJ0rq3YK1/31kvq8tNr6Q0OYS/f mCqyY75+yyOB1op0rCaQnux0swHCXg2w02d/SwtGkg7rpdAvZsPnGrvOifE72Vhs/F39qr+At lYLWwY7Nqwy/a2RKmY+jTWMKd5s/mLxTKK+aNVTz2u0wYRGRCNs5BjI4uZcwo4wJEUNxztswQ VpGi8kf5+bLjzkGVTj/GzeF6+LZnEPwiEkvlqh1piMtchU5ehuRJHqhKYQgPJEgi5pKQcnV0y +2hOnLtmNCVtTF4DrFyvkPe6JXQurjLVU6z5FA36NQ4bsCi6Zb4Peaot6wBS+PFoqCKyWhfzH 7+gk4QUHth8FVI8BZwwZIG9r+IATyNvhocP1NnjSnM3808N1fVXqcwJ/h67kP8cq2hYg4pRYr MYDJWH67YciV5+grkAR+YJLWS6iWqANyuZcLXg+6G0SS3NlpHvCHB5/mVgLyB0ErZ5v6AZlub A+2OyAWvErwUdJ9OKV8NDWAoX779iG3DIl4beCSzLZZudAZ+DJ6eRIcmY01TTEqgGsGxaRYtq ovB1wg9VAPyisHtI/kUHb+/DzUJfESdthNCH0t9k7tVnGX/adYaLDAFIYgukhurWwBafBYGxk /UrQRzJB5ko3yKv4BniNOYzqazvskr6zWKTvfy/2lplKrvM/dt63SeW1XTAlvORtJ4bdC3Yo/ ZejB/Z0uZ0KzEA3+ X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 03:01:35 -0000 On Wed, 15 Aug 2018 21:48:44 -0400, Mason Loring Bliss wrote: > On Thu, Aug 16, 2018 at 01:43:23AM +0200, Polytropon wrote: > > > Remember: > > > > Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. > > Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > > Top-posting. > > What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > > > And: > > > > Yes. > > Are you sure? > > Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. > > Why is top posting frowned upon? > > I want to steal all of this now. > > Thank you. From my perspective, anything other than interleaved posting is an > abomination. Bottom posting containing pages of cruft is just as bad as top > posting. All this highly depends on the matter that is discussed, with whom it is discussed, and the context (informal, technical, personal, etc.). Trimming a message to what should be in there is subject to "thinking before writing". It often happens in technical discussions that more than one question is handled within one message, and maybe even several threads (or topics) are being dealt with in one message. It's also good for reference purposes in public mailing lists when you can just read the last message of a thread in order to learn how the result came to be, for example, from a problem description through diagnostic material and suggestions for repair up to a working solution - in _one_ message. While the typical use of top poisting is yes/no questions in business context, while keeping all the cruft (which nobody reads) at the bottom. This is what people in offices seem to expect and demand, so they provide it. Strange world... On the other hand - and I can only speak for myself, of course -, investing some time into properly formatting a message, dealing with the text I reply to, and writing my own text with paying attention to at least the most basic rules of spelling, grammar, and punctuation, is to show _respect_ for my conversational counterpart. Just barfing some misspelled words infront of a message is - in my opinion - a sign of disrespect, and it doesn't get any better when it happens the same way at the message bottom. Of course this all depends on context; sometimes a quick reply in a hurry is fully valid. Mailing lists are an ecosystem where participation often encourages you to follow some rules or suggestions, and the quality of your contributions is judged by how good you do on all levels of content and form. A technical mailing list such as this one has of course different standards than your typical teenager neighborhood party mailing list. :-) > If our tools make it hard to write email properly, we need better tools. Then > again, maybe people need to have a better introduction to good tools. I think this is the key. Knowledge of good tools _and_ the ability (and willingness) to learn them makes conversations via email enlightening, useful, entertaining - whatever they need to be in a given context. Tools matter a lot. Just like programming languages, some of them make it hard (or even impossible) to follow certain recommendations, and that makes them bad tools. If you have the ability to choose your tools, exchange bad tools for better tools. People who deal with physical objects to this all the time. This is the reason nobody really uses a saw to drive a nail into the wall, and suggesting to do so just because "everyone else" does it that way will only result in a strange shaking of the head. :-) > Maybe documentation is the answer. In my opinion, "mind share" is important. Nobody wants to read dry documentation. Sadly, "everyone" is subjected to the use of web mailers (and Google's in particular), so it might _seem_ there are no alternatives. Older people *cough* *cough* will know better, of course, as they have started using email with non-web tools in many cases, and their mind is often more open and accessible for new thoughts. It is interesting why the generations who have grown up with certain technology aren't interested in learning more about it in order to benefit from it in a better (faster, more efficient, more comfortable, or easier) way... -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...