From nobody Fri Jan 31 10:12:28 2025 X-Original-To: hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4YksCk1fc4z5mHTh for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2025 10:13:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from paige@paige.bio) Received: from pv50p00im-zteg10011401.me.com (pv50p00im-zteg10011401.me.com [17.58.6.41]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4YksCh3kWdz4ClP for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2025 10:13:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from paige@paige.bio) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=paige.bio header.s=sig1 header.b=POg+ctsc; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of paige@paige.bio designates 17.58.6.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=paige@paige.bio; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=paige.bio DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=paige.bio; s=sig1; bh=nVLL+cEuD+KlyVp2o32Z54uM7c0ImsZKUcH+1srRJV4=; h=Content-Type:From:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:Message-Id:To:x-icloud-hme; b=POg+ctscKxjFUQPCmKIwe6lDzDggO2VsTJL+9ldqfx3wVgZViOx7ZJ3NqCF5++Qdq Azitos6jgPPpeP9fCuAP3aYAdoh1F22H6dwNQ7v5GmuDtVRsX07UAipnNLCOh3cmQo 9IPv0utBfBxNodEdW1LSDKdMlpC/aPx6zi5FFzXAjOKZfs4Y0MiafHLsqEmMIgu+w5 ZfTtJ1wmb9z7U+rD+yhD3pxxXEGftpn/9KiHP2BY/XdMa0PXdstD7xBwgY/3eSQaoC cv6PYp58NDeYSHS7awDqyH+MuMV0YXzjSNNSQZn5pgFp/HAWJKFfgPr27AFJ7dCGz1 WNsR8WHI3lTGg== Received: from smtpclient.apple (pv50p00im-dlb-asmtp-mailmevip.me.com [17.56.9.10]) by pv50p00im-zteg10011401.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9BA8C34BA7FA for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2025 10:12:59 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-85233B78-59E3-4E39-AD97-11A0FF8C98DA Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: paige@paige.bio List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Provisions to the contribution guidelines for using LLM generated code Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2025 02:12:28 -0800 Message-Id: References: <4922BB4E-1361-4AE9-A40D-D75E4875033D@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <4922BB4E-1361-4AE9-A40D-D75E4875033D@freebsd.org> To: hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (22C161) X-Proofpoint-GUID: wPBKWx6d1rRM8BTXv_uiBO_i8nPBeqLX X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: wPBKWx6d1rRM8BTXv_uiBO_i8nPBeqLX X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 clxscore=1030 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.19.0-2308100000 definitions=main-2501310077 X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.72 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; RBL_SENDERSCORE_REPUT_9(-1.00)[17.58.6.41:from]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[15]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.98)[0.979]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[paige.bio,reject]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.20)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:17.58.0.0/16:c]; MIME_HTML_ONLY(0.20)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[paige.bio:s=sig1]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[17.58.6.41:from]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,multipart/related]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[paige.bio:+]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[hackers@freebsd.org]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; APPLE_IOS_MAILER_COMMON(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:714, ipnet:17.58.0.0/20, country:US]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[17.58.6.41:from]; FROM_NO_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~,3:~,4:~] X-Spamd-Bar: - X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4YksCh3kWdz4ClP --Apple-Mail-85233B78-59E3-4E39-AD97-11A0FF8C98DA Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary=Apple-Mail-14E3A17C-FABA-4970-BFF2-6D6EC8A76C45 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --Apple-Mail-14E3A17C-FABA-4970-BFF2-6D6EC8A76C45 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > TLDR Microsoft owns the righ= ts to=E2=80=A6 https://patents.google= .com/patent/US8321439B2/en 

And yeah Claude will generate the code for it without making any mentio= n of it, because it thinks it=E2=80=99s just a hash table and doesn=E2=80=99= t understand that apparently if it=E2=80=99s a hash table as it relates to E= xFAT that it=E2=80=99s a patent. That=E2=80=99s sort of my take on this at t= he moment. 

ExFAT is in the Linux kern= el source tree: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/tree/master/fs/exfat
<= br>

What's the patent status of exFAT? | Hacker News
<= a rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3D6225070" d= raggable=3D"false">3D"ap=

If you look at the olde= r post, a lot of people didn=E2=80=99t think it belonged in the kernel even t= hough it was GPL because of the patent. Fast forward to today Linus allowed E= xFAT in but couldn=E2=80=99t get behind BCacheFS =F0=9F=98=82 wonderful.&nbs= p;
 
Yeah it seems uncertain whether you could crea= te a proper driver, put it in the FreeBSD src tree and call it BSD but I=E2=80= =99m gonna find out. I mean MacOS supports it and AFAIK the source for that i= s proprietary, that could be patent infringement though, for sure. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 30, 2025, at 12:48=E2=80=AFA= M, David Chisnall <theraven@freebsd.org> wrote:

=EF=BB=BFI am not a law= yer. If you want legal advice, you should talk to a lawyer. As a not-a-lawye= r, my opinion is:

Copyright law, in general= , does not in any way describe how copying occurs. If you photocopy a book, o= r if someone reads it to you and you write it down, that=E2=80=99s equally c= opyright infringement or fair use based on the result: the mechanism does no= t matter.

If you take a load of existing ex= FAT implementations, apply a lossy compression algorithm to them (neural net= work training) and then decompress, is the output a derived work of the inpu= t? That will depend on a load of tests that a court can apply to judge simil= arity and so on. In general, a good legal rule of thumb is that judges are n= ot idiots (ignoring the Texas West District). If you use an obfuscated proce= ss to hide your illegal action then they will regard it as both illegal and w= ilful (and be annoyed with you), which is not a good place to be.
=
Is your exFAT implementation a new creative work or a= derived work of something else? Does it infringe Microsoft=E2=80=99s exFAT p= atents? I don=E2=80=99t know and going to court is probably the only way of g= etting a definitive answer. Please don=E2=80=99t expose the FreeBSD project t= o that legal risk, defending it would cost more than the annual budget of th= e Foundation.

David
=
On 30 Jan 2025, at 02:05, paige@paige.bi= o wrote:

<= /blockquote>
=EF=BB=BFHi there,

As y=E2=80=99all have probably heard AI is the new big= thing in town and people are at a bit of a loss for what it means. Despite t= he news about the stock market sell off that came in the wake of the new Dee= pSeek thing, I=E2=80=99ve actually been playing around with this thing calle= d Claude for the past couple of weeks and I=E2=80=99m still not really sure w= hat to think of it. I think it=E2=80=99s really cool to say the least, but I= still have a lot of questions myself.

Mo= re specifically, I=E2=80=99m not really sure at what point does using someth= ing like Claude to create something like a native ExFAT filesystem become an= issue of attribution;

https://github.com= /paigeadelethompson/exfat/tree/main/sys/fs/exfat

it presumably created this based on the parameters in it=E2=80=99s m= odel (presumably, it is not actually known how Anthropic=E2=80=99s models wo= rk because as far as I know that information is proprietary.) I vaguely unde= rstand how it is able to do this and to the best of my knowledge, it doesn=E2= =80=99t plagiarize code but it does generate code based on facts that it can= find in it=E2=80=99s own model about ideas which are potentially subject to= patent restrictions. For what this is worth, I think that people are going t= o find this to be incredibly valuable regardless of whether or not it produc= es an exact desired result. What it doesn=E2=80=99t get right the first time= is often the subject of something being really damn close.

I=E2=80=99m really just dumbfounded by how much it actual= ly can do that I haven=E2=80=99t even tried to compile this code for this fi= lesystem it created; it didn=E2=80=99t take me more than an hour of saying =E2= =80=9Cyes=E2=80=9D following the initial "I'd like to make an ExFAT driver f= or FreeBSD in C can you give me the best starting point possible?=E2=80=9D T= o be honest I kinda had to fact check it a couple of times, it wanted to do t= hings like implementing extattrs which this filesystem patently doesn=E2=80=99= t have. But as soon as I asked it, it seemed to know exactly what I meant:

"No, you're right - I apologize for adding= unnecessary complexity. The ExFAT specification doesn't include support for= extended attributes like other filesystems (e.g., UFS or ext4). The only at= tributes ExFAT supports are the basic DOS/FAT attributes we already have def= ined=E2=80=9D
=
And then it proceeded to ma= ke changes to remove the stubs and so forth (which it may not have done righ= t but I haven=E2=80=99t gotten that far yet.) In fact, I don=E2=80=99t reall= y feel like I can realistically move forward with this (because I=E2=80=99ll= have to fork $20 to get more time out of it) but also I just don=E2=80=99t r= eally know whether or not this is okay. Obviously I want to say yes, but I g= et the impression that some people might not be okay with this, especially i= f what it creates is not well understood or violates copyright laws.<= br>

"Under U.S. law, you cannot patent an idea, but y= ou may be able to protect your idea by bringing it to life.=E2=80=9D As far a= s I know the licensing for ExFAT is a little bit of a gray area. It=E2=80=99= s Microsoft=E2=80=99s patent, there=E2=80=99s a GPL implementation that exis= ts but asides from that I don=E2=80=99t know if it=E2=80=99s technically oka= y to make another implementation that is licensed any other way. I assume so= , but it=E2=80=99s not unimaginable that even simply ingesting an ExFAT file= system could come with some kind of stipulation.

And I=E2=80=99m sure some people might even think =E2=80=9Cwhy would= you, there=E2=80=99s a FUSE implementation for this already=E2=80=9D and yo= u know because FUSE is FUSE and this is an implementation of ExFAT that uses= VFS. Also ExFAT/fuse does have problems but it works (sorta) in a pinch. I=E2= =80=99d personally be more interested in improving something that is part of= core FreeBSD than I would anything having to do with a port that I have to i= nstall in addition to the OS itself in order to use it.

The reason why it matters; I just really like ExFAT. Virtually e= verything now has native support for it out of the box except for UEFI (they= should, surprised Microsoft hasn=E2=80=99t pushed the standard to adopt it g= iven that .WIM files can certainly exceed 4.3GB on modern versions of Window= s. It just makes good sense to me to use it, even though it=E2=80=99s not a j= ournaled filesystem. Using parchive is not lost on me, but I=E2=80=99ve seld= om ever truly needed it even with ExFAT.

M= aybe I=E2=80=99m not even really trying to drive this to completion as much a= s I just needed an example and am just wanting to understand are people alre= ady doing this? Is it possible that people have already done this and nobody= is really aware of it? I=E2=80=99d like to think if you can then you certai= nly should but where do you draw the line, and should there perhaps be conve= ntions for keeping track of code in FreeBSD that is produced by LLMs? Maybe t= here already is and I just haven=E2=80=99t found it yet but it wouldn=E2=80=99= t come as any surprise if there weren=E2=80=99t given this is all still kind= of novel. Either way I=E2=80=99m sure there are things much more substantia= l than ExFAT worth trying, but there should probably be something of an unde= rstanding about what is and isn=E2=80=99t okay. I wonder if what we don=E2=80= =99t know about proprietary LLMs like Claude could potentially be an easily o= verlooked problem that could have legal consequences later.

In any case I=E2=80=99m sure people will figure it out, b= ut if anybody was looking for a cue to discuss this I mean.. it=E2=80=99d be= really useful to me if FreeBSD supported ExFAT out of the box (especially s= ince I can=E2=80=99t get to my offline archive of the ports and it=E2=80=99s= distfiles without it.) The only available implementations at present are GP= L=E2=80=94 so can we just like=E2=80=A6 generate an implementation with Clau= de and license it BSD? I honestly wish that my friend hadn=E2=80=99t insiste= d on showing me this kinda because I hoped to avoid something that I know is= certainly going to have repercussions for the way things are currently done= , but I can=E2=80=99t unsee this and I feel like I=E2=80=99ve been =E2=80=9C= doing it wrong=E2=80=9D my whole life.

-P= aige


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