Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2024 19:24:10 -0400 From: Karl Denninger <karl@denninger.net> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It's not Rust, it's FreeBSD (and LLVM) Message-ID: <757f500d-e1bb-4536-ad8a-c2ff45c8baf3@denninger.net> In-Reply-To: <ff0c26cbe5a7162468fc22af84a5f4dd@bsdforge.com> References: <202409031532.483FW0If007252@critter.freebsd.dk> <159D15FA-6235-484C-A54A-565E3CDEA690@gmail.com> <ff0c26cbe5a7162468fc22af84a5f4dd@bsdforge.com>
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From: Karl Denninger <karl@denninger.net>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Message-ID: <757f500d-e1bb-4536-ad8a-c2ff45c8baf3@denninger.net>
Subject: Re: It's not Rust, it's FreeBSD (and LLVM)
References: <202409031532.483FW0If007252@critter.freebsd.dk>
<159D15FA-6235-484C-A54A-565E3CDEA690@gmail.com>
<ff0c26cbe5a7162468fc22af84a5f4dd@bsdforge.com>
In-Reply-To: <ff0c26cbe5a7162468fc22af84a5f4dd@bsdforge.com>
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<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 9/3/2024 18:16, Chris wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"
cite=3D"mid:ff0c26cbe5a7162468fc22af84a5f4dd@bsdforge.com">On
2024-09-03 12:36, David Cross wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">On Sep 3, 2024, at 11:32=E2=80=AFAM,
Poul-Henning Kamp <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"ma=
ilto:phk@phk.freebsd.dk"><phk@phk.freebsd.dk></a> wrote:
<br>
<br>
=EF=BB=BFWhat is FreeBSD ?
<br>
-----------------
<br>
<br>
Forget Rust for the moment, I promise I will come back to it.
<br>
<br>
FreeBSD as a project was created almost entirely as protest
against
<br>
the incompetent "UNIX-industry" as it existed around 1990.
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
...
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<br>
This distribution format is neither more nor less perfect with
<br>
respect to reproducible builds and "Reflections on trusting
trust"
<br>
than what we have today.
<br>
<br>
And yes, we have ports written in Rust, why do you ask?
<br>
<br>
Poul-Henning
<br>
<br>
PS: I overdosed on release work 25+ years ago, and have not
been
<br>
paying them much attention since, but if this is what the
pkgbase
<br>
crew has been pushing for more than a decade, we all owe them
an
<br>
apology.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
As a quick note I constantly build freebsd from source. I do it
for all of my
<br>
systems for all updates, all patch releases.
<br>
<br>
I may be an outlier here, ...
<br>
</blockquote>
You're definitely not. I build world/kernel for the multitude of
servers (and home
<br>
equipment). For the servers, I only need to do it once (per
hardware profile). Where I
<br>
then simply make images and pour it onto the boot/storage media.
<br>
<br>
In my opinion, the most attractive feature of the BSD's are that
there are so darned
<br>
many options. There is no one-size-fits-all for anything, and the
fact that FreeBSD
<br>
provides so many options to make/install/add/subtract/... provides
a near perfect match
<br>
that tailors to anyone's needs.
<br>
<br>
--Chris
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<p>I'll third that.</p>
<p><i>One of the reasons I use FreeBSD almost-exclusively, </i>beyond=
my personal familiarity (I used it as the Unix "power" if you will
behind my ISP in the 1990s) is that I can tailor it through the
source build process quite-easily to multiple purposes.</p>
<p>My primary build and operating platform here is <i>always </i>buil=
t
and updated from source, and has several versions on it as
"worktrees" at any given point in time.=C2=A0 That in turn builds b=
oth
release media <i>and </i>more-specialized "releases" that are
more "appliance" like for specific purposes which are then
deployed to various places.=C2=A0 Most of those are nanobsd (or
Crochet, same basic deal) based because they need to be extremely
power-fail tolerant and effectively operate, other than when
saving configuration changes, without having to have an r/w
mounted filesystem during normal operation.=C2=A0 Dual partition se=
tup
allows for "live" updating; update the non-running one and reboot.<=
/p>
<p>I also have machines in-field that are binary updated with
freebsd-update -- those systems are quite "vanilla" in terms of
their requirements.=C2=A0 I also have systems that I want to and do=
update from -STABLE when commits come into the codebase but don't
necessarily merit a "release-px" patch.<br>
</p>
<p>When llvm came into the tooolchain build times went vertical.=C2=A0=
Fortunately by then so had processing power and I/O performance
for "reasonable" equipment, but please do not kid yourself on the
impact -- it was extremely significant in that self-hosted builds
on lesser machines became intolerable.=C2=A0 Today I crossbuild rat=
her
than native in some cases because I basically <i>have to </i>in
order to get reasonable build times, and incidentally there's a
hard-to-reproduce (and thus far no fix as a result) issue I have
open from having to do it that way right now against some ARM
systems (<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://bugs.fr=
eebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D280038">https://bugs.freebsd.org/bug=
zilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D280038</a>)
that showed up with an LLVM fix for an issue that looks like it
results in an alignment problem within LLVM in the target on the
code that gets built, but disappears if you try to enable
debugging symbols, assertions and even building with debug files
(and then removing them before install.)=C2=A0 Of course without
symbols the backtrace is very close to useless in figuring out
exactly where its segfaulting and with them included it doesn't
blow up.=C2=A0 Would this be immediately able to be isolated in a
native build (or even not happen as its an artifact of
cross-compiling)?=C2=A0 I don't know, but at 12 hours a crack to tr=
y on
a Pi3, if LLVM will even build at all on that due to RAM
limitations, I'm not very inclined to try to find out.=C2=A0 My
workaround for the present is to include the debug files -- but
strip them from the finished media -- which makes the problem
disappear.</p>
<p>Making that sort of problem worse, in my opinion, is to be
avoided if the project can reasonably do so.<br>
</p>
<div class=3D"moz-signature">-- <br>
Karl Denninger<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:karl@denninger.net" class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetex=
t">karl@denninger.net</a><br>
<i>The Market Ticker</i><br>
<font size=3D"-2"><i>[S/MIME encrypted email preferred]</i></font><=
/div>
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