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Grimes" of "Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:41:22 -0700." <201904291441.x3TEfMid072751@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> <201904291931.x3TJV73d079802@slippy.cwsent.com> <00fb01d4fec7$86559650$9300c2f0$@ixsystems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base To: kris@ixsystems.com CC: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org From: Cy Schubert Message-ID: <890199D5-C118-4EAE-A3E0-0364B0BC3A2F@cschubert.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfNuL6XmXqLE8zdyiljVEtu5fXR8o5zYmfQxZVEcF8Cj2rlXcbsFUCGrK9UrEHIPEuIbaOJTiJl+TESUXkzaHQ/DoAPzUcCHJLcRam+tucHNU9xli0Mmi qDbpCkUF7TxG9mIYvgJ9I/Eh8tQYY/i0TCma4LQTn92RPQn1A0OpntIEVExC3FGJl2drNa/+9uTdWimPI17IyU+ijarbtwrBOCOx8OssqWdNVEItN/9iEmMO X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 69FD57504C X-Spamd-Bar: ----- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-5.70 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[233.154.66.70.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11,17.125.67.70.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; IP_SCORE(-2.50)[ip: (-6.73), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-3.21), asn: 6327(-2.45), country: CA(-0.09)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: spqr.komquats.com]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.996,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[12.134.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 20:54:06 -0000 On April 29, 2019 1:09:59 PM PDT, kris@ixsystems=2Ecom wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Cy Schubert >> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 3:31 PM >> To: Rodney W=2E Grimes >> Cc: Kris Moore ; FreeBSD Stable > stable@freebsd=2Eorg>; freebsd-ports@freebsd=2Eorg; Goran Meki=C4=87 >> ; freebsd-hackers@freebsd=2Eorg; FreeBSD Current >> ; freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd=2Eorg; freebsd= - >> pkg@freebsd=2Eorg; Emmanuel Vadot >> Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base >>=20 >> In message <201904291441=2Ex3TEfMid072751@gndrsh=2Ednsmgr=2Enet>, "Rodn= ey >> W=2E >> Grimes" >> writes: >> > > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 10:09 AM Rodney W=2E Grimes < >> > > freebsd-rwg@gndrsh=2Ednsmgr=2Enet> wrote: >> > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Correct, this is ZFS only=2E And it's something we're using >> > > > > specific to >> > > > FreeNAS / TrueOS, which is why I didn't originally mention it >as >> > > > apart of our CFT=2E >> > > > >> > > > Then please it is "CFT: FreeNAS/TrueOS pkg base, ZFS only", >> > > > calling this FreeBSD pkg base when it is not was wrong, and >miss >> > > > leading=2E >> > > > >> > > >> > > Sorry, I disagree=2E >> > Which is fine=2E >> > >> > > This pkg base is independent of the ZFS tool we're using to >wrangle >> > > boot-environments=2E Hence why it wasn't mentioned in the CFT=2E >> > > These base packages work the same as existing in-tree pkg base on >> > > UFS, no difference=2E If anything are probably safer due to being >able >> > > to update all of userland in single extract operation, so you >don't >> > > have out of order extraction of libc or some such=2E >> > >> > You missed the major string change and focused on the edge, No >comment >> > on calling iXsystems :stuff: FreeBSD instead of FreeNAS/TrueOS? >> > >> > That was the major point of my statement, your miss leading the >user >> > community, you yourself said this would never be imported into >FreeBSD >> > base, so I see no reason that it should be called "FreeBSD package >> > Base", as it is not, that is a different project=2E >>=20 >> Taking the last comment on this thread to ask a question and maybe >refocus >> a little=2E >>=20 >> The discussion about granularity begs the question, why pkgbase in >the >first >> place? My impression was that it allowed people to select which >components >> they wanted to either create a lean installation or mix and match >base >> packages and ports (possibly with flavours to install in /usr rather >than >> $LOCALBASE) such that maybe person A wanted a stock install while >person >> B wanted to replace, picking a random example, BSD tar with GNU tar=2E >Isn't >> that the real advantage of pkgbase? >>=20 >> If OTOH it's binary updates V 2=2E0, what's the point? I'm a little >rhetorical here >> but you get my point=2E If I want ipfw instead pf or ipfilter instead >of the >others >> I should have the freedom=2E Similarly if I want vim instead of vi I >should >have >> the choice to install vim as /usr/bin/vi=2E Otherwise all the effort to >replace >> binary updates makes no sense=2E >>=20 >>=20 > >That is a fantastic point=2E The way we've been doing it is with the >os/userland meta-pkg=2E Using ZoL as an example, we build userland with >the >ZFS options disabled, then added a ZOL option to userland, which makes >sysutils/zol a depend of userland meta-pkg=2E > >Over time I can see this becoming a trend, were we replace bits of base >(by >setting WITHOUT_*) and injecting the ports version of those bits via >regular >pkg depends=2E Good candidates would be tools like svn / git, mailers, >compilers, shells, editors, etc=2E > >Ironically this was an issue in the current pkg base implementation >that led >us to flattening out the userland package=2E We found that run-time >removal of >specific packages just flat out didn't work=2E I=2EE=2E pkg delete >FreeBSD-zfs >didn't work without re-compiling all the things in advance using the >proper >WITHOUT_* flags=2E Same for trying to remove RADIUS support, or others=2E >Too >many things tended to change in seemingly un-related packages, you'd >almost >need a full set of flavors for a lot of WITH/WITHOUT combinations for >that >to be viable=2E=20 > >Additionally, this was why we combined base/ports into a single pkg >repo=2E By >building both through poudriere, it makes it possible to properly >interject >depends and upgrade in lock-step=2E Really changes the paradigm of what >is >base/ports in a positive way IMHO=2E I don't think we want to disable parts of base=2E We should build base pac= kages that can be optionally replaced by ports with flavour @base=2E Ports could be built with flavours @base, with $PREFIX /usr, or @ports (or= some better name), with $PREFIX /usr/local=2E Pkgbase could build the base packages negating the need for WITHOUT_* or t= he base packages could be excluded from base using WITHOUT_* and new ports = be used to build those same packages=2E In this case, IMO, the implementati= on doesn't matter at the moment but getting straight what we want is the im= portant point here=2E If this is indeed the goal, IMO should be, we can bikeshed the implementat= ion details in another thread on another day=2E I'd like to focus on what i= s pkgbase to look like to the end-user when we're finally done=2E --=20 Pardon the typos and autocorrect, small keyboard in use=2E Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www=2EFreeBSD=2Eorg The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few=2E