From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Feb 25 09:16:19 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D14DFB7A for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2015 09:16:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mailout.easymail.ca (mailout.easymail.ca [64.68.201.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7821C676 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2015 09:16:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout.easymail.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FD0FE458 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2015 04:16:18 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mailout.easymail.ca X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.865 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.865 required=5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.8, AWL=-0.158, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_AHBL_RHSBL=0.692] Received: from mailout.easymail.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (easymail-mailout.easydns.vpn [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XO8szVm+sDlg for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2015 04:16:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from bsddt1241.lv01.astrodoggroup.com (unknown [40.141.24.126]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailout.easymail.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8908CE45C for ; Wed, 25 Feb 2015 04:16:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <54ED92E5.4010803@astrodoggroup.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 01:16:21 -0800 From: Harrison Grundy User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: locks and kernel randomness... References: <20150224174053.GG46794@funkthat.com> <54ECBD4B.6000007@freebsd.org> <20150224182507.GI46794@funkthat.com> <54ECEA43.2080008@freebsd.org> <20150224231921.GQ46794@funkthat.com> <1424822522.1328.11.camel@freebsd.org> <20150225002956.GT46794@funkthat.com> <2F49527F-2F58-4BD2-B8BE-1B1190CCD4D0@bsdimp.com> <54ED5656.50607@astrodoggroup.com> <20150225090638.GB74514@kib.kiev.ua> In-Reply-To: <20150225090638.GB74514@kib.kiev.ua> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 09:16:19 -0000 On 02/25/15 01:06, Konstantin Belousov wrote: > On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 08:57:58PM -0800, Harrison Grundy wrote: >> <... snip ...> >> >> The timing attack I talked to you about on IRC works like this: >> >> A userland process creates as many threads as there are CPUs, and by >> manipulating the load they generate, gets it so they're all flagged as >> interactive and at the same priority. (alternating spin and sleep with >> a 2% duty cycle would work, for instance) >> >> It would also be possible to coerce a userland process, like apache to >> behave this way. >> >> These threads now have the ability to preempt all timeshare tasks on >> all CPUs for slice_size time, by waking up and spinning at the same >> time. This means they can get very precise knowledge about scheduling, >> by timing when they get to run, versus when they have to wait. > Ok, this is definitely not impossible. > >> >> By watching CPU0, one of these threads can measure balance_ticks. >> >> This is important because balance_ticks directly exposes the last 7 >> bits it gets back from random(). (The value gets applied to >> balance_interval to keep the balancer from running on exactly the same >> interval) >> >> This means that if an attacker can trigger the use of random, or is >> willing to wait long enough for a race, they can determine the value >> of those bits that were passed along to anyone who called random() at >> the same time. >> >> It also means that they can eventually discover the state of the RNG, >> and predict future values. >> >> The security implications of disclosing the values this way isn't as >> severe as it might seem, simply because random() isn't really used in >> any cryptographically sensitive areas, but there are definite >> consequences, like predicting firewall port values, and NFS client >> transaction IDs. >> >> It is, however, surprising to learn that the balance_interval sysctl >> has security implications. > > So this is an argument to remove the current random() call from > the sched_balance(). There is no implications for use of e.g. > get_cyclecount() in the sched_balance(), since on x86 userspace has the > ability to read the underlying counter directly. > > On other architectures, where counter backing get_cyclecount() is not > accessible to userspace, it is still feasible to use in sched_balance(), > simply because counter is ticking. > > Do you agree with these statements ? Yes. sched_balance itself does not need any sort of non-public randomness. The worst thing an attacker can do is gain a few extra cycles on a CPU by only running on longer balance intervals. Given the many other ways load gets transferred in ULE, there's not much utility there. > > Also, as I understand from your other responses, you did tested the > patch to use get_cyclecount() on non-x86 machines ? I try to understand > what testing was done for the get_cyclecount() for sched_balance() patch, > i.e. is it ready for commit. I have not tested this on other arches. I spoke to some of the committers active on them to get an idea of what get_cyclecount does. I'm currently testing a patch that creates "sched_random()", using the random number generator from cpu_search. This should provide good enough jitter for the balancer, and other potential scheduler uses of random(); I'll add it to the PR, and send a note out here after I've run it for a bit. --- Harrison > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-arch@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-arch-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >