From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Jul 9 07:34:37 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39C5C106570D; Mon, 9 Jul 2012 07:34:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from avleen@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lb0-f182.google.com (mail-lb0-f182.google.com [209.85.217.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C9668FC1D; Mon, 9 Jul 2012 07:34:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: by lbon10 with SMTP id n10so19486400lbo.13 for ; Mon, 09 Jul 2012 00:34:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=6blQTjG/7PxcQxqmsmUNpW9fdGsSPfAVH9oZ94ecsNw=; b=vJZz0cQG4wWuluAU4G0W5MYS3QJJHUvZixAVb6uXpHGUpLa4MYnSMtmX4f1nhvOPsw 0lsXwl4NyxINIS2naKdA8oTzP6xDwTQhL7n7NFq29FjNp0rToLwsxM4D0o/cAp3ZiYfy AxScj/urHrRupKY20SZwx3HNDPrk/gZ21FeP1pkt2VI51sWb1aRsV7bqN0kFHzCQDAgi Rcl43Ia/QhGmn7M8Npq8nCQutKqIg/2GxCp67m7ZtfIAHRhZhaa3ZPehpDIoE7uLIpZb TqiD2/Tgh+YtnlJuYuo8yaDAfYqapQtLX5dSOvl1x1/5c4kAVxMKCaNnMqS2OEcH0OFW byJg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.43.67 with SMTP id u3mr17649818lbl.16.1341819275004; Mon, 09 Jul 2012 00:34:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.76.225 with HTTP; Mon, 9 Jul 2012 00:34:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4FFA7980.4000707@FreeBSD.org> References: <4FF2E00E.2030502@FreeBSD.org> <86bojxow6x.fsf@ds4.des.no> <89AB703D-E075-4AAC-AC1B-B358CC4E4E7F@lists.zabbadoz.net> <4FF8C3A1.9080805@FreeBSD.org> <20472.51031.308284.775990@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> <4FF8C890.9030408@FreeBSD.org> <4FFA7174.7050604@FreeBSD.org> <4FFA7980.4000707@FreeBSD.org> Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 00:34:34 -0700 Message-ID: From: Avleen Vig To: Doug Barton Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 11:39:22 +0000 Cc: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag=2DErling_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Garrett Wollman , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: Replacing BIND with unbound (Was: Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 07:34:37 -0000 On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 11:26 PM, Doug Barton wrote: > On 07/08/2012 23:16, Avleen Vig wrote: >> On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 10:51 PM, Doug Barton wrote: >>> On 07/08/2012 22:43, Avleen Vig wrote: >>>> It would be silly not to keep bind-tools in base. >>> >>> Sounds easy, but not so much in practice. Keeping any of the code >>> doesn't solve the problem of the release cycles not syncing up. And for >>> the vast majority of users needs the tools we will import will be more >>> than adequate. >> >> The question I keep asking myself is: >> "Is this best for the users?" > > Carrying BIND code in the base that is past EOL is not good for the > users, period. Everything else we're discussing is an implementation > detail. I think the "everything else we're discussing is an implementation detail" is the part we'll have a problem with. Although Garrett's reply to my email makes sense too. >> Linux has `nscd` which is a nice caching resolver, but most >> distributions still carry bind-tools in the default install. > > A) You're wrong about "most." and B) The Linux distros have a default > set of packages. There is no "base" like there is in FreeBSD. (Thus, > your analogy is flawed.) That's not *really* true, there is a "base" like FreeBSD, but what we consider core userland tools like `ls`, come in a package (coreutils). > That said, I still believe that our idea of what should, and should not > be, in the base system is seriously flawed, and needs to be completely > redone. But that's never going to happen, so I'm trying to work with > what we've got. Agreed. The idea of a "minimally functional system" itself might be flawed. Do you consider having `dig` and `host` essential in a minimally functioning system? I do. It's pretty f'king hard to resolve problems with installing the bind-utils port, if you don't know how to test your DNS :-) The issue is also one of barrier-to-entry. By removing `dig` and `host`, I think we're making things unnecessarily more difficult for people who don't *know* FreeBSD. `dig` and `host` a universally standard tools for doing DNS lookups. Taking them away in base to replace them with something else just seems like something that won't really *help* users. Yes, I'm going to be a stickler and say that having EOL code in base isn't the end of the world. It's not ideal, but really.. what is it breaking? If there's a security vulnerability, sure, I understand that it might suck without support from ISC to patch dig/host/nslookup, but when was the last time that happened?