Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2016 00:55:48 +0300 From: Slawa Olhovchenkov <slw@zxy.spb.ru> To: Rainer Duffner <rainer@ultra-secure.de> Cc: lev@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-current Current <freebsd-current@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: [CFT] packaging the base system with pkg(8) Message-ID: <20160418215548.GE6614@zxy.spb.ru> In-Reply-To: <2D6C2427-806C-4F18-8B1C-263CCC34CF21@ultra-secure.de> References: <20160302235429.GD75641@FreeBSD.org> <57152CE5.5050500@FreeBSD.org> <9D4B9C8B-41D7-42BC-B436-D23EFFF60261@ixsystems.com> <20160418191425.GW1554@FreeBSD.org> <571533B8.6090109@freebsd.org> <20160418194010.GX1554@FreeBSD.org> <57153E80.4080800@FreeBSD.org> <2D6C2427-806C-4F18-8B1C-263CCC34CF21@ultra-secure.de>
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On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 10:30:48PM +0200, Rainer Duffner wrote:
>
> > Am 18.04.2016 um 22:07 schrieb Lev Serebryakov <lev@FreeBSD.org>:
> >
> > On 18.04.2016 22:40, Glen Barber wrote:
> >
> >> This granularity allows easy removal of things that may not be wanted
> >> (such as *-debug*, *-profile*, etc.) on systems with little storage. On
> >> one of my testing systems, I removed the tests packages and all debug
> >> and profiling, and the number of base system packages is 383.
> > IMHO, granularity like "all base debug", "all base profile" is enough
> > for this. Really, I hardly could imagine why I will need only 1 debug or
> > profile package, say, for csh. On resource-constrained systems NanoBSD
> > is much better anyway (for example, my typical NanoBSD installation is
> > 37MB base system, 12MB /boot and 10 packages), and on developer system
> > where you need profiled libraries it is Ok to install all of them and
> > don't think about 100 packages for them.
> >
> > Idea of "Roles" from old FreeBSD installers looks much better. Again,
> > here are some "contrib" software which have one-to-one replacements in
> > ports, like sendmail, ssh/sshd, ntpd, but split all other
> > FreeBSD-specific code? Yes, debug. Yes, profile. Yes, static libraries.
> > Yes, lib32 on 64 bit system.
> >
> > It seems that it is ideological ("holy war") discussion more than
> > technical one...
>
>
>
> From the discussion, I believe it’s primarily driven by the need/desire to have small packages to make updates easier on the mirror-servers.
>
> I’m really not sure (yet), which is worse: the current system that pulls down some 14k small files for a system-upgrade - or a system where the base-system is split into almost 800 packages.
Lesser of files is best. 800 packages is better then 14k. 10 packages
is better then 800.
> freebsd-update is „only" unreliable if
> - you go through a proxy with authentication
> - that proxy doesn’t do http-pipelining (or does it bad/is broken is this respect) (certain version of Sophos UTM for example…)
freebsd-update broken on server side.
freebsd-update not relaible on client side.
freebsd-update to long even on SSD and 10Gbit connectivity.
freebsd-update to long to prepare (4x times longer of one compiling)
> AFAIK.
>
> As for the packages: I wouldn’t mind „fatter“ packages. I’d mirror them locally anyway (I hope this is possible - AFAIK, the freebsd-update files are not supposed to be mirrored), and I don’t have a thousand servers to pull them down all at once anyway (working on that ;-)).
>
> I’m pretty sure the impact on the current FreeBSD delivery infrastructure would be quite substantial, if updates came in 60MB chunks - esp. if there was some sort of auto-update mechanism in place.
> Fast-forward to the future where a lot (millions?) more embedded devices are based on FreeBSD and pull updates from the FreeBSD infrastructure.
Hundred of millions iPad and iPhones got update in near-gigabyte chunks.
> Or if the container hype-train reached FreeBSD and people started to containerize everything, resulting in even more base-package update downloads.
>
> So, I can see both sides. Neither I’m really satisfied with.
>
> I hope a way is found to manage these number of packages without losing sanity and that a normal pkg info doesn’t list them.
> And that pkg upgrade doesn’t upgrade base-packages.
>
>
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