From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Jan 5 15:26:04 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CFE9EAF1FD for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2018 15:26:04 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from repeatable_compression@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic306-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic306-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.189.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB42E6DB10 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2018 15:26:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from repeatable_compression@yahoo.com) X-YMail-OSG: _SddRmcVM1nJxZCtrZgFURVxnQKAGb2iASLhSLJnIiLQbCS6oOI8qaV3dM1hi4w SuR4XEcrNnbotGWzz2cB1RcWpSB1xsID_7tekZTsYHGjwmwhBZUX3Uxfer74oK8ZZpq8DHeO5LEY eeuAb2eFA0_m8B3xyJ0U9s7AytItHsCZ2yzBpQ0SVkTfx.35GjTd0xjGnxD7fy5Qy78qAvRFRsfQ ZNhBUrCcDhnNBIutlsAj5myteoKJ6ntp2NWJeF_A2g2fE84MDuDpIkG3d2Jc_3QRHuWg2.avm5ZM 4da9fZS0GqBoVA8_ekbGtdIOen3sOKRQsarEddWTozNERLkluYwivu3wNG1Gra.4Dbh7zxMjNU5H Ygk40Y9ORP7d7EB11heasRrxS71RutuocaLB4dtCiPv.moiQvwyFRwC8SHS2NcWahwFfIvURAPJt hplC7FHgei1GlSYZHPAvV6Zp7zHb5Rzw8XdNxdkRVR85EoNzCwHRicSwc4O9q4oRvn7_tNhaVrNR FFCBnZyqu3qz5DNmNLgU9Hw-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic306.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 5 Jan 2018 15:25:57 +0000 Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 15:25:34 +0000 (UTC) From: Jules Gilbert To: =?UTF-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?= Cc: "Ronald F. Guilmette" , Eric McCorkle , Freebsd Security , Poul-Henning Kamp , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , FreeBSD Hackers , Shawn Webb , Nathan Whitehorn Message-ID: <302406914.1010662.1515165934929@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <861sj4tlak.fsf@desk.des.no> References: <736a2b77-d4a0-b03f-8a6b-6a717f5744d4@metricspace.net> <2594.1515141192@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <809675000.867372.1515146821354@mail.yahoo.com> <861sj4tlak.fsf@desk.des.no> Subject: Re: Intel hardware bug MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.11150 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Ubuntu; Linux i686; rv:57.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/57.0 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 05 Jan 2018 15:54:45 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.25 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2018 15:26:04 -0000 Ah, sorry I'm wrong.=C2=A0 I apologize.=C2=A0 I won't intrude further.=C2= =A0 I spoke up because selectively choosing to read sections of kernel memo= ry is one thing, obtaining useful information from an arbitrary block of ke= rnel memory you don't get to choose is quite another. But their are several people here I respect very much and if they say I'm w= rong about an area they focus on,... me bad. On Friday, January 5, 2018, 9:48:50 AM EST, Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav wrote: =20 =20 Jules Gilbert writes: > Sorry guys, you just convinced me that no one, not the NSA, not the > FSB, no one!, has in the past, or will in the future be able to > exploit this to actually do something not nice. The technique has already been proven by multiple independent parties to work quite well, allowing an attacker to read kernel memory at speeds of up to 500 kB/s.=C2=A0 But I guess you know better... DES --=20 Dag-Erling Sm=C3=B8rgrav - des@des.no =20 From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Jan 5 16:40:53 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C6FEEB30CB; Fri, 5 Jan 2018 16:40:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nwhitehorn@freebsd.org) Received: from c.mail.sonic.net (c.mail.sonic.net [64.142.111.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5067171044; Fri, 5 Jan 2018 16:40:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from nwhitehorn@freebsd.org) Received: from comporellon.tachypleus.net (cpe-75-82-218-62.socal.res.rr.com [75.82.218.62]) (authenticated bits=0) by c.mail.sonic.net (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTPSA id w05GeeDm023309 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 5 Jan 2018 08:40:40 -0800 Subject: Re: Intel hardware bug To: =?UTF-8?Q?C_Bergstr=c3=b6m?= , Eric McCorkle Cc: FreeBSD Hackers , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , Shawn Webb , Freebsd Security , Poul-Henning Kamp , "Ronald F. Guilmette" , =?UTF-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=c3=b8rgrav?= , Brett Glass , Jules Gilbert References: <736a2b77-d4a0-b03f-8a6b-6a717f5744d4@metricspace.net> <2594.1515141192@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <809675000.867372.1515146821354@mail.yahoo.com> <250f3a77-822b-fba5-dcd7-758dfec94554@metricspace.net> From: Nathan Whitehorn Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 08:40:39 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Sonic-CAuth: UmFuZG9tSVZILE4do3EwanuIbHwb+oXQqQMbU4e5/RAi1Rs7bbWb8We8TNMbM+6jFRuna3/GZxymxTMek3deOLiPVdx5Re4Gm/lJED6aZkw= X-Sonic-ID: C;anAGKjfy5xGXhCeh2dYaJA== M;xAySKjfy5xGXhCeh2dYaJA== X-Spam-Flag: No X-Sonic-Spam-Details: 0.0/5.0 by cerberusd X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 05 Jan 2018 16:47:30 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.25 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2018 16:40:53 -0000 On 01/05/18 06:55, C Bergström wrote: > On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 8:42 PM, Eric McCorkle wrote: > >> On 01/05/2018 05:07, Jules Gilbert wrote: >>> Sorry guys, you just convinced me that no one, not the NSA, not the FSB, >>> no one!, has in the past, or will in the future be able to exploit this >>> to actually do something not nice. >> Attacks have already been demonstrated, pulling secrets out of kernel >> space with meltdown and http headers/passwords out of a browser with >> spectre. Javascript PoCs are already in existence, and we can expect >> them to find their way into adware-based malware within a week or two. >> >> Also, I'd be willing to bet you a year's rent that certain three-letter >> organizations have known about and used this for some time. >> >>> So what is this, really?, it's a market exploit opportunity for AMD. >> Don't bet on it. There's reports of AMD vulnerabilities, also for ARM. >> I doubt any major architecture is going to make it out unscathed. (But >> if one does, my money's on Power) >> > Nope, the only arch that I'm aware of that gets past this is SPARC(hah!) > due to the seperate userland and kernel memory virtualization. > _______________________________________________ POWER has the same thing. It's actually stronger separation, since user processes don't share addresses either -- all processes, including the kernel, have windowed access to an 80-bit address space, so no process can even describe an address in another process's address space. There are ways, of course, in which IBM could have messed up the implementation, so the fact that it *should* be secure does not mean it *is*. SPARC avoids the issue because almost all implementations are in-order. -Nathan