From owner-freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Wed May 8 16:29:36 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95DD6158CAD2 for ; Wed, 8 May 2019 16:29:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from karl@denninger.net) Received: from colo1.denninger.net (colo1.denninger.net [104.236.120.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 56DBE84180 for ; Wed, 8 May 2019 16:29:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from karl@denninger.net) Received: from denninger.net (ip68-1-57-197.pn.at.cox.net [68.1.57.197]) by colo1.denninger.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9129D2110AD for ; Wed, 8 May 2019 12:28:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.10.24] (D14.Denninger.Net [192.168.10.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by denninger.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 956EDF135C for ; Wed, 8 May 2019 11:28:57 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: ZFS... To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org References: <30506b3d-64fb-b327-94ae-d9da522f3a48@sorbs.net> <70fac2fe3f23f85dd442d93ffea368e1@ultra-secure.de> <70C87D93-D1F9-458E-9723-19F9777E6F12@sorbs.net> <5ED8BADE-7B2C-4B73-93BC-70739911C5E3@sorbs.net> <2e4941bf-999a-7f16-f4fe-1a520f2187c0@sorbs.net> <20190430102024.E84286@mulder.mintsol.com> <41FA461B-40AE-4D34-B280-214B5C5868B5@punkt.de> <20190506080804.Y87441@mulder.mintsol.com> <08E46EBF-154F-4670-B411-482DCE6F395D@sorbs.net> <33D7EFC4-5C15-4FE0-970B-E6034EF80BEF@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <26B407D8-3EED-47CA-81F6-A706CF424567@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <42ba468a-2f87-453c-0c54-32edc98e83b8@sorbs.net> <4A485B46-1C3F-4EE0-8193-ADEB88F322E8@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <14ed4197-7af7-f049-2834-1ae6aa3b2ae3@sorbs.net> <453BCBAC-A992-4E7D-B2F8-959B5C33510E@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <92330c95-7348-c5a2-9c13-f4cbc99bc649@sorbs.net> From: Karl Denninger Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=karl@denninger.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFIX1zsBEADRcJfsQUl9oFeoMfLPJ1kql+3sIaYx0MfJAUhV9LnbWxr0fsWCskM1O4cV tHm5dqPkuPM4Ztc0jLotD1i9ubWvCHOlkLGxFOL+pFbjA+XZ7VKsC/xWmhMwJ3cM8HavK2OV SzEWQ/AEYtMi04IzGSwsxh/5/5R0mPHrsIomV5SbuiI0vjLuDj7fo6146AABI1ULzge4hBYW i/SHrqUrLORmUNBs6bxek79/B0Dzk5cIktD3LOfbT9EAa5J/osVkstMBhToJgQttaMIGv8SG CzpR/HwEokE+7DP+k2mLHnLj6H3kfugOF9pJH8Za4yFmw//s9cPXV8WwtZ2SKfVzn1unpKqf wmJ1PwJoom/d4fGvQDkgkGKRa6RGC6tPmXnqnx+YX4iCOdFfbP8L9rmk2sewDDVzHDU3I3ZZ 8hFIjMYM/QXXYszRatK0LCV0QPZuF7LCf4uQVKw1/oyJInsnH7+6a3c0h21x+CmSja9QJ+y0 yzgEN/nM89d6YTakfR+1xkYgodVmMy/bS8kmXbUUZG/CyeqCqc95RUySjKT2ECrf9GhhoQkl +D8n2MsrAUSMGB4GQSN+TIq9OBTpNuvATGSRuF9wnQcs1iSry+JNCpfRTyWp83uCNApe6oHU EET4Et6KDO3AvjvBMAX0TInTRGW2SQlJMuFKpc7Dg7tHK8zzqQARAQABtCNLYXJsIERlbm5p bmdlciA8a2FybEBkZW5uaW5nZXIubmV0PokCPAQTAQIAJgUCUhfXOwIbIwUJCWYBgAYLCQgH AwIEFQIIAwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEG6/sivc5s0PLxQP/i6x/QFx9G4Cw7C+LthhLXIm7NSH AtNbz2UjySEx2qkoQQjtsK6mcpEEaky4ky6t8gz0/SifIfJmSmyAx0UhUQ0WBv1vAXwtNrQQ jJd9Bj6l4c2083WaXyHPjt2u2Na6YFowyb4SaQb83hu/Zs25vkPQYJVVE0JX409MFVPUa6E3 zFbd1OTr3T4yNUy4gNeQZfzDqDS8slbIks2sXeoJrZ6qqXVI0ionoivOlaN4T6Q0UYyXtigj dQvvhMt0aNowKFjRqrmSDRpdz+o6yg7Mp7qEZ1V6EZk8KqQTH6htpCTQ8i79ttK4LG6bstSF Re6Fwq52nbrcANrcdmtZXqjo+SGbUqJ8b1ggrxAsJ5MEhRh2peKrCgI/TjQo+ZxfnqEoR4AI 46Cyiz+/lcVvlvmf2iPifS3EEdaH3Itfwt7MxFm6mQORYs6skHDw3tOYB2/AdCW6eRVYs2hB RMAG4uwApZfZDKgRoE95PJmQjeTBiGmRPcsQZtNESe7I7EjHtCDLwtJqvD4HkDDQwpzreT6W XkyIJ7ns7zDfA1E+AQhFR6rsTFGgQZRZKsVeov3SbhYKkCnVDCvb/PKQCAGkSZM9SvYG5Yax 8CMry3AefKktf9fqBFg8pWqtVxDwJr56dhi0GHXRu3jVI995rMGo1fLUG5fSxiZ8L5sAtokh 9WFmQpyl Message-ID: Date: Wed, 8 May 2019 11:28:57 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <92330c95-7348-c5a2-9c13-f4cbc99bc649@sorbs.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-512; boundary="------------ms050606090205020207040608" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 56DBE84180 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.16 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; HAS_ATTACHMENT(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[px.denninger.net]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.87)[-0.866,0]; SUBJ_ALL_CAPS(0.45)[6]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-2.54)[ip: (-9.88), ipnet: 104.236.64.0/18(-4.18), asn: 14061(1.42), country: US(-0.06)]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:14061, ipnet:104.236.64.0/18, country:US]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:+]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[197.57.1.68.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; SIGNED_SMIME(-2.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,multipart/alternative,text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-stable@freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[denninger.net]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[] X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 May 2019 16:29:36 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms050606090205020207040608 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 5/8/2019 10:14, Michelle Sullivan wrote: > Paul Mather wrote: >> On May 8, 2019, at 9:59 AM, Michelle Sullivan >> wrote: >> >>>> Did you have regular pool scrubs enabled?=C2=A0 It would have picked= up >>>> silent data corruption like this.=C2=A0 It does for me. >>> Yes, every month (once a month because, (1) the data doesn't change >>> much (new data is added, old it not touched), and (2) because to >>> complete it took 2 weeks.) >> >> >> Do you also run sysutils/smartmontools to monitor S.M.A.R.T. >> attributes?=C2=A0 Although imperfect, it can sometimes signal trouble >> brewing with a drive (e.g., increasing Reallocated_Sector_Ct and >> Current_Pending_Sector counts) that can lead to proactive remediation >> before catastrophe strikes. > not Automatically >> >> Unless you have been gathering periodic drive metrics, you have no >> way of knowing whether these hundreds of bad sectors have happened >> suddenly or slowly over a period of time. > no, it something i have thought about but been unable to spend the > time on. > There are two issues here that would concern me greatly and IMHO you should address. I have a system here with about the same amount of net storage on it as you did.=C2=A0 It runs scrubs regularly; none of them take more than 8 ho= urs on *any* of the pools.=C2=A0 The SSD-based pool is of course *much* faste= r but even the many-way RaidZ2 on spinning rust is an ~8 hour deal; it kicks off automatically at 2:00 AM when the time comes but is complete before noon.=C2=A0 I run them on 14 day intervals. If you have pool(s) that are taking *two weeks* to run a scrub IMHO either something is badly wrong or you need to rethink organization of the pool structure -- that is, IMHO you likely either have a severe performance problem with one or more members or an architectural problem you *really* need to determine and fix.=C2=A0 If a scrub takes two weeks *then a resilver could conceivably take that long as well* and that's *extremely* bad as the window for getting screwed is at its worst when a resilver is being run. Second, smartmontools/smartd isn't the be-all, end-all but it *does* sometimes catch incipient problems with specific units before they turn into all-on death and IMHO in any installation of any material size where one cares about the data (as opposed to "if it fails just restore it from backup") it should be running.=C2=A0 It's very easy to set up and= there are no real downsides to using it.=C2=A0 I have one disk that I rot= ate in and out that was bought as a "refurb" and has 70 permanent relocated sectors on it.=C2=A0 It has never grown another one since I acquired it, = but every time it goes in the machine within minutes I get an alert on that.=C2=A0 If I was to ever get *71*, or a *different* drive grew a new = one said drive would get replaced *instantly*.=C2=A0 Over the years it has flagged two disks before they "hard failed" and both were immediately taken out of service, replaced and then destroyed and thrown away.=C2=A0 Maybe that's me being paranoid but IMHO it's the correct approach to such notifications. BTW that tool will *also* tell you if something else software-wise is going on that you *might* think is drive-related.=C2=A0 For example recen= tly here on the list I ran into a really oddball thing happening with SAS expanders that showed up with 12-STABLE and was *not* present in the same box with 11.1.=C2=A0 Smartmontools confirmed that while the driver w= as reporting errors from the disks *the disks themselves were not in fact taking errors.*=C2=A0 Had I not had that information I might well have traveled down a road that led to a catastrophic pool failure by attempting to replace disks that weren't actually bad.=C2=A0 The SAS expa= nder wound up being taken out of service and replaced with an HBA that has more ports -- the issues disappeared. Finally, while you *think* you only have a metadata problem I'm with the other people here in expressing disbelief that the damage is limited to that.=C2=A0 There is enough redundancy in the metadata on ZFS that if *al= l* copies are destroyed or inconsistent to the degree that they're unusable it's extremely likely that if you do get some sort of "disaster recovery" tool working you're going to find out that what you thought was a metadata problem is really a "you're hosed; the data is also gone" sort of problem. --=20 Karl Denninger karl@denninger.net /The Market Ticker/ /[S/MIME encrypted email preferred]/ --------------ms050606090205020207040608 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgMFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC 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