From nobody Mon Aug 4 18:47:54 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bwltc5lwCz63NGb; Mon, 04 Aug 2025 18:48:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Received: from smtpo49.interia.pl (smtpo49.interia.pl [217.74.67.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bwltc0n3dz49tW; Mon, 04 Aug 2025 18:48:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vermaden@interia.pl) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2025 20:47:54 +0200 From: vermaden Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature To: Mark Millard , David Chisnall Cc: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz>, Shawn Webb , "freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org" , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" , "pete@nomadlogic.org" , "bapt@freebsd.org" , "bane@pmf.uns.ac.rs" X-Mailer: interia.pl/pf09 In-Reply-To: <8690FF2F-B66D-423E-815C-9D64700A7D7D@yahoo.com> References: <8690FF2F-B66D-423E-815C-9D64700A7D7D@yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 45.148.42.1 Message-Id: List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=interia.pl; s=biztos; t=1754333285; bh=IzslqACS+rM2Cr3dSJ7KNFU4EsGLydotASFbFxzcscs=; h=Date:From:Subject:To:Message-Id:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=uGE9FYcp8BtlRQyNv9qceluR3j1+RpwNkxzQhi9tpJiyGMYv08V0R6uVs6G+cPYfO rrUYbZjWSX9vAyhg45bbzeHpd53GXCEJEgecsP2lybpoYXiLYR7VYIdZscJgA1mUKV xGjitWbCp2mWy/QtVTG+yDSMnW6K9n56x90PNh1o= X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bwltc0n3dz49tW X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16138, ipnet:217.74.64.0/22, country:PL] Hi. > PkgBase does not remove the issue that updating > the kernel first, rebooting, and then updating the > world can be a requirement. > (World should get a later reboot as well.) Not related to PKGBASE - but as you will be doing a reboot after the update= /upgrade anyway - its safer and easier to do the upgrade inside separate ZF= S Boot Environment - as running kernel does not 'conflict' with the one ins= talled/upgraded inside the ZFS BE. So you do all the possible steps needed = - upgrading base - upgrading packages ... Details: https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2021/02/23/upgrade-freebsd-with-zfs-boot-env= ironments/ Another good aspect of doing it this way is limiting downtime to just a reb= oot time - because while you were doing the upgrade - the 'host' system sti= ll works untouched - then after you are done - you reboot into upgraded ZFS= BE and check if everything works - and if not you just reboot again into t= he ZFS BE that worked perfectly before the upgrade and have 'endless' time = to figure out what the issue with the upgrade was. Hope that helps. Regards, vermaden Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Data: 2025-08-04 16:52 Nadawca: "Mark Millard" <marklmi@yahoo.com> Adresat: "David Chisnall" <theraven@FreeBSD.org>;=20 DW: "Miroslav Lachman" <000.fbsd@quip.cz>; "vermaden" <vermaden@inter= ia.pl>; "Shawn Webb" <shawn.webb@hardenedbsd.org>; "freebsd-pkgbase@free= bsd.org" <freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org>; "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" <= ;freebsd-stable@freebsd.org>; "freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org" <freebsd-pkg@fre= ebsd.org>; "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" <freebsd-current@freebsd.org>; = pete@nomadlogic.org; bapt@freebsd.org; bane@pmf.uns.ac.rs;=20 >=20 >>=20 >=20 > On Aug 1, 2025, at 07:22, David Chisnall wrote: >=20 >> On 31 Jul 2025, at 02:57, Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> wrote: >>>=20 >>> I would also like to separate it. Use one command to update (upgrade) 3rd party packages and another to update (upgrade) base packages. It is our workflow for the last 25+ years thus running one command to update both is really unexpected and unwanted. >>=20 >> I disagree here. If you *want* to separate them, then you can: you can specify the repository that you want to upgrade explicitly. But if you do then you risk things like: >>=20 >> - I=E2=80=99ve upgraded my base system, but not my ports-kmods things, = so now my GUI doesn=E2=80=99t start. >=20 > PkgBase does not remove the issue that updating the kernel > first, rebooting, and then updating the world can be a > requirement. (World should get a later reboot as well.) >=20 > Last I knew PkgBase did not manage this sequence of itself, > even for when kmods are not involved. I selectively update > the kernels first and reboot before updating teh other > PkgBase packages. (The plural 'kernels' is because I'm > using main and have all the PkgBase kernels installed. > One can not do that for non-main for contexts with .dtb > files involved: conflicts.) >=20 > Is it always safe to update all the ports-kmods before the > world is updated so they are in place for the after-kernel > reboot with the old world? >=20 > If not, then PkgBase is not of itself a way of making the > handling automatic as far as I can tell. >=20 >> - I=E2=80=99ve upgraded ports, but the ports tree is built on a newer point release and I need to upgrade to make some symbols exist. >> - I=E2=80=99ve upgraded the base system and now some kmods from ports don=E2=80=99t work. >>=20 >> All of these are things that users have complained about publicly in the last year or so. =20 >>=20 >> I have avoided them by always doing `freebsd-update install && p= kg upgrade` and keeping that in my shell history[1] so I don=E2=80=99t acciden= tally forget to upgrade both together. >>=20 >> Given a choice between a thing that works for users, or something that *can* work for users but comes with a bunch of footguns that they need to avoid, I=E2=80=99d pick the former. >>=20 >> David >>=20 >> [1] I=E2=80=99ve noticed on fresh installs, the default shell no longer has working persistent history, which is a *big* POLA violation, if people want to complain about something. >>=20 >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D > Mark Millard > marklmi at yahoo.com >=20 >=20 >=20