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Date:      Mon, 28 May 2001 06:10:40 -0700
From:      Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group <Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca>
To:        Peter Pentchev <roam@orbitel.bg>
Cc:        Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group <Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca>, patl@phoenix.volant.org, Sheldon Hearn <sheldonh@uunet.co.za>, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: ipfw: reset -vs- unreach port 
Message-ID:  <200105281311.f4SDBKD12215@cwsys.cwsent.com>
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 28 May 2001 15:40:40 %2B0300." <20010528154040.J588@ringworld.oblivion.bg> 

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In message <20010528154040.J588@ringworld.oblivion.bg>, Peter Pentchev 
writes:
> On Mon, May 28, 2001 at 05:33:10AM -0700, Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Gro
> up wrote:
> > In message <20010528131136.A588@ringworld.oblivion.bg>, Peter Pentchev 
> > writes:
> > > On Mon, May 28, 2001 at 12:03:48PM +0200, Sheldon Hearn wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On Mon, 28 May 2001 00:55:45 MST, patl@Phoenix.Volant.ORG wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > There are a few 'nuisance' TCP services that are normally blocked by
> > > > > firewalls (e.g., auth [113] and netbios-ns [137])  In the interest
> > > > > of reducing the delays which would be imposed by simply dropping
> > > > > those packets, is it better to use 'reset' (send an RST), 'unreach
> > > > > port' (send a Port Unreachable ICMP message), or 'unreach filter-proh
> ib'
> > > > > (send a Filter Prohibition ICMP message) ?
> > > > 
> > > > Yes.
> > > 
> > > Uh.. I think the original poster already considered using one of these
> > > three better than just dropping the packet on the floor, and his question
> > > was more like which of the three was better :)
> > > 
> > > IMHO, a simple RST would be best - a classic, old-fashioned 'connection
> > > refused, no one here' reply, almost no indication that it is actually
> > > a firewall blocking the attempt, no fear of overly-paranoid firewalls
> > > dropping stray ICMP packets (and causing the same delay due to no respons
> e).
> > > Yes, I know that no one should block *these* types of ICMP, but the sad
> > > fact is, some ISP's do.
> > 
> > Actually, there is indication that there is a firewall by sending a 
> > simple RST. If in fact the firewall is dropping all other packets and 
> > just sending RST for blocked packets destined for port 113, we must 
> > conclude that there is a firewall blocking access.  If the firewall 
> > sends a RST to all connection attempts, replies with port-unreachable 
> > to any UDP packets, and replies to all pings, it will appear that a 
> > host is connected but not running any services.  Anything other than a 
> > black hole response to everything would make it easy to deduce that a 
> > firewall is in the path.  Of course just dropping every blocked packet 
> > will seem to indicate that there is no host or firewall in the path, 
> > but you cannot be selective about this.
> 
> I was talking about a case when there are no dropped connection attempts,
> and every 'denied' connection attempt is 'denied' by sending a RST.

Just reading through SecurityPortal, there is a pointer to timely 
article discussing the reject v.s. deny controversy.  I'm not implying 
that that we have a controversy here, just a timely article.

Take a look at http://securityportal.com/closet/closet20010523.html.


Regards,                         Phone:  (250)387-8437
Cy Schubert                        Fax:  (250)387-5766
Team Leader, Sun/Alpha Team   Internet:  Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca
Open Systems Group, ITSD, ISTA
Province of BC




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