From nobody Wed Jan 10 09:42:07 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4T92rn5CVNz56Q0F for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2024 09:42:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olce@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [96.47.72.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4T92rn3nB1z478q; Wed, 10 Jan 2024 09:42:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olce@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1704879737; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=J50KpPzwqGfc3cEQLg6DU5luj35WKDF6tF4TfcynYO0=; b=nNBzSh6urAgopZXZgn86F/vo5qlHaGXmx4+fskqa11gBiyO11St8t6mCq9xxZv382hc/1e fvYlFLvdWQs6gKE2jQRxjU/OR+/dbK8PfFRgUZgGpjV9CHndNwEf2VIAkm9jucw4g2enSy G9f02UUSPZwFM7WZyUzWxHBXSC0FAdCoO7elNhXlkLQ8pHokiTtf6kd9rCG5vRpAuejChD R1Ak1cJOj642T/chptt1M5w/U3XJgxlLMDzgEpDjYY3hjXZZ6ZJ+alsFWLwiFMiAqPx1XC PlCUYI/GIN4MAmGv6IEJCgaUR23xbdhju6v9+bxqc7zg/moJzVpXq4Qk/X5Sxw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1704879737; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=J50KpPzwqGfc3cEQLg6DU5luj35WKDF6tF4TfcynYO0=; b=Xa1XDWN3Kxm06k5tqQpf3p28S9ZNd6P24nw/QW3wIjabbZh42rfK7u4wlUS4G74t9QQp11 De6wbgqoDsoI7zJ3acbd0SFQpTbav08IIZpK+plHEE74i/X+Mc/W4rJoXel3lbJdYoXAtM 9inMGf2BxmqXjXqVhvUnaJxbIwEfzciFZlmffdiX1hp4JRLBcc7zE4j3+PawZi3pQdaHB1 DTVEyRkm4Qg/COhzr1ALdTq462E5wXNn4NdE4N9nm9ONVBznqnP/FNrnk4uQgZnidBu5Nv ZcdxFl9LqT//fDrgq+WUrp/XfUokKAkCR73oTkTuKtVr3g+zTERXHLn4oN0G+A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1704879737; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Ns9Uuv35VRKqczSlXkyS62gf1TiEBMlsVb0khPvqiItFnbHfUdZyJV2A1Fc/WYl9Z/p4EO raY/lC/6YuhS9TR0MossT/EES785hFRrZvEFUPd+mCmkA/0BiKlUr9QgivSdKMnH+ohorg Fmyc6kSSsPvbLH6O+G0i3d/8CAekLF7LMbh75CuVn6AeD5hbf5UO2n9//vG/fvyjWD31pG GOz3lYhHdvxPKgX96HtqCl21Wc9vTFtpRoGv+fq50b32Uwp0CnIKcw9dEa2Lzr6hUZEV9m PT+E9zIrG9RUghgoI2cW7vSfbseclu1GGdXgcadB2/MqsD9u6IRvmhUbzgL54g== Received: from ravel.localnet (lfbn-nic-1-525-172.w90-118.abo.wanadoo.fr [90.118.140.172]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: olce/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4T92rn0d62z12Fw; Wed, 10 Jan 2024 09:42:16 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olce@freebsd.org) From: Olivier Certner To: Steffen Nurpmeso Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: noatime on ufs2 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 10:42:07 +0100 Message-ID: <2367131.USjQqFH40Q@ravel> In-Reply-To: <20240109174318.MCIB6yhn@steffen%sdaoden.eu> References: <5f370bce-bcdb-47ea-aaa7-551ee092a7d3@app.fastmail.com> <20240109174318.MCIB6yhn@steffen%sdaoden.eu> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart3074382.Ovca90QLe3"; micalg="pgp-sha384"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" --nextPart3074382.Ovca90QLe3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; protected-headers="v1" From: Olivier Certner To: Steffen Nurpmeso Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: noatime on ufs2 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 10:42:07 +0100 Message-ID: <2367131.USjQqFH40Q@ravel> In-Reply-To: <20240109174318.MCIB6yhn@steffen%sdaoden.eu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi, > I would not exactly call this a gimmick. I wish I hadn't used that term since it attracts too much attention on itse= lf, making people forget it was part of a sentence that was quite balanced = and seemingly altering their judgement. I think you're confusing the need and the mechanism (or implementation). I= n substance, we (Robert and I) were talking about turning "atime" off *by d= efault*. What I tried to convey is that the needs that justify this mechan= ism are those of a minority in my view (and I'm certainly not opposed to be= educated if it's not true), and additionally that the "atime" mechanism ad= dresses these needs poorly. With that in mind, developing "relatime" to try to alleviate the shortcomin= gs of "atime" has a low ROI: It doesn't add the crucial functionality most = needs (like auditing) would require and doesn't even really address the I/O= shortcomings in some frequent scenarios. Deactivating "atime", by contras= t, doesn't require any development, suppresses all I/O overhead, and doesn'= t suppress any functionality for an overwhelming majority of uses (at least= , this is my current view; other inputs welcome). I did not say that the needs themselves are a gimmick, e.g., having a notif= ication of new mail (although, in this case, frankly, I'm on the verge of a= rguing it). Simply, relying on "atime" (or "relatime") for this is unneces= sary, as you must have understood reading the various previous answers in t= his thread. > On Linux mount(8) from https://github.com/karelzak/util-linux says >=20 > relatime > Update inode access times relative to modify or change time. Access > time is only updated if the previous access time was earlier than > or equal to the current modify or change time. (Similar to noatime, > but it doesn=E2=80=99t break mutt(1) or other applications that ne= ed to > know if a file has been read since the last time it was modified.) >=20 > and this is what i use, except for some noatime mount points > (/x/doc, /x/music, /x/pub, to be exact). It seems that the other answers (mostly those of Robert IIRC) have shown th= at this manpage text isn't up-to-date with current practices. Which need(s) of yours are you trying to address exactly by using "relatime= "? Thanks and regards. =2D-=20 Olivier Certner --nextPart3074382.Ovca90QLe3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. 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