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Date:      Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:46:09 -0500
From:      Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@flugsvamp.com>
To:        Mike Smith <msmith@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc:        Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@flugsvamp.com>, arch@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: kblob discussion.
Message-ID:  <20000619194609.N37084@prism.flugsvamp.com>
In-Reply-To: <200006192345.QAA10193@mass.osd.bsdi.com>
References:  <20000619182730.L37084@prism.flugsvamp.com> <200006192345.QAA10193@mass.osd.bsdi.com>

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On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:45:15PM -0700, Mike Smith wrote:
> > Not quite true.  You can't load your "static image" into the
> > kernel directly from disk.  You have to go through userspace.
> > That counts as an extra copy in my book.  Now it may be true
> > that you may not need to do this for _YOUR_ application, but 
> > that may not be applicable for mine.
> 
> I think I've tried hard enough to make it clear that your application 
> requires your solution, but that kblob is a solution to a rather 
> different problem. 

I must not be trying hard enough.  What I have is a *superset* of 
kblob.  It solves the *same* problem, but can also do additional 
things.  It does roughly exactly what kblob does, in the same fashion.
(no vm mapping games).


> > > > > Irregardless, this is irrelevant in this context.
> > > > 
> > > > Not irrelevant; you're not looking at the big picture here.
> > > 
> > > Actually, I think I'm looking at a *bigger* picture - what can we do to 
> > > make FreeBSD a better platform for real-world applications?
> > > 
> > > The ability to send static content in the most efficient manner possible 
> > > is a key "big picture" item.  You're so tied up in what would be the most 
> > > wonderful engineering solution that you're completely ignoring this.
> > 
> > Gee, really?  Please explain to me in small words how what I'm 
> > trying to accomplish is contrary to what you're saying above.  Please
> > explain how the rough API I posted is at all at odds to above.  Please
> > explain to me how "static content" is the end-all and be-all "big picture".
> 
> I've never claimed that it's the "be-all and end-all" big picture.
> That's your claim, about your proposal.  As I've said time and time 
> again, kblob is a specific solution to a specific problem.

I'm not claiming that about what I have.   If I thought it was perfect,
I would have submitted it for inclusion.  All I'm trying to do is expand
the API so it can handle other uses as well.


> > Until you do so, I will keep going and solving some real-world 
> > applications that are larger than just serving static content.
> 
> That's sheer arrogance. 8(

No, it just happens to be my *job* at the moment.


> > > > > No.  Since the data in a kblob came from userspace, and can't be modified 
> > > > > in the kernel, this would be pointless.
> > > > 
> > > > Exactly.  You're looking at kblob as a "static send-only buffer which
> > > > comes from user space".  I'm looking at kblob as an "in-kernel object
> > > > cache".  The two views are _NOT_ that far apart, and with a little API
> > > > help, the current code can be made much more flexible.  Why are you 
> > > > opposed to that?
> > > 
> > > Why would anyone be opposed to putting a Perl interpreter in the kernel?
> > 
> > And I thought that -arch was supposed to be a technical list, not the
> > place for ad homenium attacks.
> 
> That's pretty lame.  Especially since the question was rhetorical and 
> quite applicable to the point I was trying to make.

I think we must be talking at cross purposes.  My question wasn't
rhetorical, and I must be missing your point.


> > > You're welcome to your API, but you need to face the fact that it's just 
> > > as irrelevant to kblob's target audience as kblob is to you.
> > 
> > Methinks that you haven't actually read what I posted, otherwise
> > you wouldn't be saying that.
> 
> One could draw the same conclusion in reflex.  Why not simply accept the 
> fact that right now you're competing against functional code, and come up 
> with a competitive alternative?  Right now, all we've got from your 
> corner is vapourware - nobody is going to dispute that if you can make 
> your code do what kblob does at a comparable cost, and it's more 
> versatile, it'll be the winner.  The issue right now is that all of the 
> proposals so far have been too expensive, and entirely lacking in 
> implementation.
> 
> Under those circumstances you're better off coding than bitching while 
> someone else deploys something that solves their problems.

I'm not objecting to the code, nor the concept, I'm just trying
to make the api flexible enough to handle things which I would like
to add later.   Yes, I have code that will do the above, but no,
I don't feel that it is quite polished enough to put in the public
release kernel.

It is my understanding now that this will be done as a loadable 
syscall, so with that in mind, I guess getting the API correct 
is not paramount any more, so I'll shut up for a bit.
--
Jonathan


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