Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2024 11:09:03 -0400 From: Joe Schaefer <joesuf4@gmail.com> To: Borja Marcos <borjam@sarenet.es> Cc: Kim Shrier <kim@westryn.net>, "Peter 'PMc' Much" <pmc@citylink.dinoex.sub.org>, FreeBSD Hackers <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: It's not Rust, it's FreeBSD (and LLVM) Message-ID: <CAOzHqcKGEcL6nBok5iC=9A=%2BNhEr95zMsMwESv%2B3iDxEAuFL3g@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <846E87A2-A16B-49C1-9F26-2A6B194782CB@sarenet.es> References: <202409031532.483FW0If007252@critter.freebsd.dk> <908e7c45fbcea4634427b8d065bb2f20@Leidinger.net> <202409081302.488D2UvB069580@critter.freebsd.dk> <slrnveg7cc.kmv.pmc@disp.intra.daemon.contact> <B2E5791A-D22C-4E32-9AAD-30C6A3DB2623@westryn.net> <846E87A2-A16B-49C1-9F26-2A6B194782CB@sarenet.es>
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--000000000000bf689206223df42f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Correct take. Rust is clearly not a mature ecosystem suitable to be an Operating System platform, commercial or otherwise. Yes DARPA is funding it, like it funds bioterrorism. It=E2=80=99s not the s= ame organization is was 30 years ago. On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 10:54=E2=80=AFAM Borja Marcos <borjam@sarenet.es> w= rote: > > > > On 16 Sep 2024, at 15:57, Kim Shrier <kim@westryn.net> wrote: > > I have stayed out of this conversation so far but I agree with Peter. > > I compile all my kernels and ports from source. I make local patches > > when needed. And while I have had some of my patshes accepted > > into the FreeBSD source, I am not a committer. > > One of the outstanding advantages of FreeBSD versus the avian alternative > is > the ports system. > > There are many ports with meaningful compile time options. Typical > conversation > with an avian user: =E2=80=9COk, to make this work you need to tweak this= compile > time > option and compile=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 and the answer is usually =E2=80=9C= whaaat? I don=C2=B4t see that > in the > repo, can=E2=80=99t do=E2=80=9D. > > > I have dabbled with rust, several times and I don=E2=80=99t like it. I= t reminds > > me too much of C++ and I have never liked that language. These > > languages appear to introduce too much complexity and their > > runtime libraries change too much over time. > > I agree with you regarding the runtime changes. The C family has many > problems, > it's known since the 80=E2=80=99s. > > But an alternative must be stable enough to be included with the base > system. And recent > languages change way too much. And some changes are more aesthetic than > useful, which > in my opinion doesn=E2=80=99t justify breaking stuff. > > Memory safety is critical, it=E2=80=99s been way too long with buffer ove= rflows and > other nonsense that should not happen in a high level language, but > developer sanity > is also mandatory. Languages evolve, but there=E2=80=99s no need to evolv= e them > yearly. > > > > > > Borja. > > > --000000000000bf689206223df42f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto">Correct take.=C2=A0 Rust is clearly not a mature ecosyste= m suitable to be an Operating System platform, commercial or otherwise.</di= v><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Yes DARPA is funding it, li= ke it funds bioterrorism. It=E2=80=99s not the same organization is was 30 = years ago.</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class= =3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Sep 16, 2024 at 10:54=E2=80=AFAM Borja Marcos <<= a href=3D"mailto:borjam@sarenet.es">borjam@sarenet.es</a>> wrote:<br></d= iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left= :1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br> <br> > On 16 Sep 2024, at 15:57, Kim Shrier <<a href=3D"mailto:kim@westryn= .net" target=3D"_blank">kim@westryn.net</a>> wrote:<br> > I have stayed out of this conversation so far but I agree with Peter.<= br> > I compile all my kernels and ports from source.=C2=A0 I make local pat= ches<br> > when needed.=C2=A0 And while I have had some of my patshes accepted <b= r> > into the FreeBSD source, I am not a committer.<br> <br> One of the outstanding advantages of FreeBSD versus the avian alternative i= s <br> the ports system.<br> <br> There are many ports with meaningful compile time options. Typical conversa= tion<br> with an avian user: =E2=80=9COk, to make this work you need to tweak this c= ompile time<br> option and compile=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 and the answer is usually =E2=80=9Cwh= aaat? I don=C2=B4t see that in the<br> repo, can=E2=80=99t do=E2=80=9D.<br> <br> > I have dabbled with rust, several times and I don=E2=80=99t like it.= =C2=A0 It reminds<br> > me too much of C++ and I have never liked that language.=C2=A0 These<b= r> > languages appear to introduce too much complexity and their<br> > runtime libraries change too much over time. <br> <br> I agree with you regarding the runtime changes. The C family has many probl= ems,<br> it's known since the 80=E2=80=99s.<br> <br> But an alternative must be stable enough to be included with the base syste= m. And recent<br> languages change way too much. And some changes are more aesthetic than use= ful, which<br> in my opinion doesn=E2=80=99t justify breaking stuff. <br> <br> Memory safety is critical, it=E2=80=99s been way too long with buffer overf= lows and<br> other nonsense that should not happen in a high level language, but develop= er sanity<br> is also mandatory. Languages evolve, but there=E2=80=99s no need to evolve = them yearly.<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Borja.<br> <br> <br> </blockquote></div></div> --000000000000bf689206223df42f--
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