From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sun Feb 10 03:17:49 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED30114DB376 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2019 03:17:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yaneurabeya@gmail.com) Received: from mail-pf1-x436.google.com (mail-pf1-x436.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::436]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FE9291B55; Sun, 10 Feb 2019 03:17:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from yaneurabeya@gmail.com) Received: by mail-pf1-x436.google.com with SMTP id y126so3580876pfb.4; Sat, 09 Feb 2019 19:17:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=kZarwB5i1jZVhbIx2zs9Xydnj3WPD4XefGv6Y4voG0g=; b=cZRAcFlrrx1N/XzNQ0qq44vXsCTEReUSFj3T7VIh0Gp1BPp5eDhexImOMMGiBvWmOo MxzX93kQZ6wL8s+4Id4nVzI3L5aa4rzPX+4m/P90zqZfrbrhudPonUYb8PqqDP6AOBsv /glxRyjdOK8u4ZpUwJwcqhhRVvj/Lqh/CthxMbOmcWAjgA9VZrHX3JssMKnoMCmBDEjr xdtj3CvzKbjkh0Ywl8dNZrVu/1nfrmYC64rG94d+68RpbJvvQA9MvI7dhIcQqyBnyM01 zOgjl4Bat6DLp45X3EGXWopO6tkRZg3FsjJp8kLKFUJ0UdahR0OuPT7VfJYN+UABnJGl liTw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=kZarwB5i1jZVhbIx2zs9Xydnj3WPD4XefGv6Y4voG0g=; b=jjpxx5lS1hgs3zWoKbzFJghv71ntO/NqUauaKpAmAI33yoHdUU+nNKC0wmDs8HGewm DQ5pYZgPLUk6RgiVQdcwKNuoS7/OWiRQnwqQafxXf6ULzpzg2/578gdV4LZCvKgQHd2E aj+y0UCPUUFbKHsb5eREdQP9vsZ1e0oN8DhcIYU7L2tpeSyT4Jjnaf7Xea44g6MtBMoT 6/vJChEVUN/EOH+2p7Or0kvb+B0PhRdpBicftFERLVbtZ2eMC2HsshsWK5YAJPC0MR8Y eh9VvivvbomUVQj20Ghe5E3+OEjIJblKwFJ1IQmHg51wmeZM0tFAxbs7F0sv+mDg2Jle mLWw== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAubJvfy++v+3sgZrlXsxr+Z97q2PHEG4VBvY23iG3k/0BG1bKtpu HUk2NCWuATemkK0P6v8VpXHwB+PC X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IZ9NkSMsHTBJGLa+q1udCvPofwbBhJUZQPtlaRSMq2+J98PnnU/1DqXLJLadBUmu5l3R1n8Vw== X-Received: by 2002:a63:2905:: with SMTP id p5mr28057377pgp.178.1549768665861; Sat, 09 Feb 2019 19:17:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2607:fb90:fcc:1206:5533:c7b5:d523:cec9? ([2607:fb90:fcc:1206:5533:c7b5:d523:cec9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m13sm6554177pfi.32.2019.02.09.19.17.44 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 09 Feb 2019 19:17:45 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: nosh init system From: Enji Cooper X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16C104) In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2019 19:17:43 -0800 Cc: Wojciech Puchar , Sidju , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Conrad Meyer Message-Id: <01CB4D6D-0958-42E3-9BD6-149B0A26DB95@gmail.com> References: To: Adam X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 9FE9291B55 X-Spamd-Bar: ------ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=cZRAcFlr; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of yaneurabeya@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::436 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=yaneurabeya@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-6.23 / 15.00]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.89)[-0.892,0]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-2.83)[ip: (-9.66), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.46), asn: 15169(-1.95), country: US(-0.07)]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[6.3.4.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2019 03:17:49 -0000 > On Feb 9, 2019, at 10:32, Adam wrote: >=20 >> On Sat, Feb 9, 2019 at 11:57 AM Enji Cooper wrote= : >=20 >> On Feb 9, 2019, at 09:32, Wojciech Puchar wrote: >>=20 >> >> pid 2 and reap zombies. We're missing a half-decent service >> >> management system. On Linux, systemd performs both roles. On >> >> FreeBSD, init(8) serves one role, and rc(8) is a tiny subset of a real= >> >> service management system like systemd. >> >=20 >> > systemd is overcomplex crap. And a reason many people migrated to FreeB= SD from linux. >> >=20 >> >>=20 >> >> (I think the piece we would consider replacing or supplementing would >> >> be rc(8). Part of that might be migrating some responsibilities from >> >> pid 1 to pid 2, such as spawning gettys. I don't hold strong opinions= >> >> about that.) >> >=20 >> > this make sense but with spawning gettys left to init. >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > what do you want to improve in rc? starting services in parallel doesn'= t seem to be major problem to make i think. >>=20 >> Starting and stopping services based on logical events and =E2=80=9Crun l= evels=E2=80=9D, apart from what devd handles with hardware events is what co= mes to mind for me. >>=20 >> rc(8) is also incredibly fragile when it comes to starting or stopping se= rvices beyond first boot, or when dealing with =E2=80=9Coptional=E2=80=9D se= rvices, like nis/yp. I tried to clean this up a few years ago, but it=E2=80=99= s not close to my ideal design (it feels like a bubblegum and duct tape sol= ution). >=20 > "incredibly fragile" indicates there is some common, easily triggered issu= e with it. Can you elaborate please? I stop and restart base services and o= thers on a regular basis and don't see an issue there although I also haven'= t use NIS for some time. Try restarting netif if you have a static route set; it will break routing (= until you restart the routing pseudo service), causing your machine to becom= e unreachable if you=E2=80=99re not on the same network segment. Linux doesn=E2=80=99t have this problem; neither does OS X. Thanks, -Enji=