From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Jun 10 16:41:26 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8888F16A41C for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:41:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from mail28.sea5.speakeasy.net (mail28.sea5.speakeasy.net [69.17.117.30]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39CA643D48 for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:41:26 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 29092 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2005 16:41:26 -0000 Received: from server.baldwin.cx ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail28.sea5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 10 Jun 2005 16:41:25 -0000 Received: from [10.4.255.72] ([206.13.39.129]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j5AGfHAe073857; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:41:17 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) In-Reply-To: <42A8F923.90009@sasktel.net> References: <20050608212440.EDE1520F01@krell.webweaver.net> <42A7AAA6.7070608@pacific.net.sg> <42A7D3DB.9080300@sasktel.net> <732767b54cd8713b8b06e44ebfc9f791@FreeBSD.org> <42A8F923.90009@sasktel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <08f9491eb6c370af2759c72c862a410e@FreeBSD.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John Baldwin Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:41:08 -0700 To: Stephen Hurd X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 required=4.2 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: Erich Dollansky , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: apple moving to x86 X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:41:26 -0000 On Jun 9, 2005, at 7:21 PM, Stephen Hurd wrote: > John Baldwin wrote: > >> >> On Jun 8, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Stephen Hurd wrote: >> >>> >>>> As there is FreeBSD port to the PowerPC and its peripherals, this >>>> machine will make a very interesting target for FreeBSD: combine >>>> the x86 code base with the PowerPC drivers and get a real hot >>>> machine. >>> >>> >>> The *really* hot machine is going to be the OSX ABI supported under >>> FreeBSD and running Aqua. I betcha this happens FAST. >> >> >> I doubt it would be fast at all if it even happens. Unlike Linux, >> svr4, and ibcs2, OS X is not just a POSIXish UNIX kernel. It also >> includes mach so there would have to be a lot of emulation to support >> that. OS X also tends to define its interface not at the kernel >> syscall level but at the library API level (from what I have heard), >> which means that it might require having custom versions of the base >> system frameworks ala Wine which would be an enormous amount of work. >> > But the ABI support is about emulating the kernel ABI, not about > emulating the kernel. Since the *nix userland is mostly FreeBSD > afaik, the ABI must be pretty darn close already. If the interface is > via libraries, that makes it MORE likely not less to happen fast... > unless I misunderstand something. ABI emulation doesn't replace the > libraries. You'd still need a copy of OSX to run OSX binaries that > used the shared libs (Just like all the other ABI emulations). Two things. First, OS X's kernel ABI includes things like Mach IPC, etc. that would require a good bit of code to emulate. Secondly, since OS X's ABI is at the library level, they are freer to change the kernel ABI within a 10.x "branch" making it harder to get an ABI that will work with all versions of Panther or Tiger for example. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve" = http://www.FreeBSD.org