From owner-freebsd-i18n Wed Sep 4 21:39: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9795637B400; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9DD043E42; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:38:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ache@pobrecita.freebsd.ru) Received: from pobrecita.freebsd.ru (ache@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nagual.pp.ru (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g854cebq038551; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 08:38:41 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache@pobrecita.freebsd.ru) Received: (from ache@localhost) by pobrecita.freebsd.ru (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g854cdcV038550; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 08:38:39 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 08:38:38 +0400 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: Mikhail Teterin Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, Maxim Sobolev , anholt@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: koi8-r is obsoleted by koi8-u (Re: cvs commit: ports/x11-fonts/XFree86-4-fontCyrillic) Message-ID: <20020905043838.GA38406@nagual.pp.ru> References: <200209031042.g83AgFON078508@freefall.freebsd.org> <200209041155.15033.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <20020905021640.GA37309@nagual.pp.ru> <200209050018.15176@aldan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200209050018.15176@aldan> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Sep 05, 2002 at 00:18:15 -0400, Mikhail Teterin wrote: > provide the entire KOI8-R, the X11 does not and thus no app will rely on it. > I understand the compatibility issues, and I know, that no vendor would write > an application, that uses those special characters -- because of, uhm, > compatibility issues... Applications which follow standards will do. > . You make an incomplete set of "good enough", but not standard compliant > KOI8-R fonts (see quote below) available at your web-site and send them to > XFree86, pretending/implying that > . the fonts you distribute are KOI8-R > . KOI8-R *IS* Cyrillic > Practicality rules -- standards be damned -- we need to be able to > read/write in Russian! I treat Cyrillic as superset, so KOI8-R is Cyrillic too. BTW, I not insist on such calling strictly. If XFree86 name it fontRussian, it will be nice for me too. > . You are perfectly comfortable with XFree86 distributing those fonts as > KOI8-R ones and "KOI8-R" as "Cyrillic", even after > . the KOI8-U is introduced (you even helped them with the RFC, so you *knew* > about it) > . after the more updated KOI8-R fonts became available elsewhere; Yes. I have nothing against KOI8-U, KOI8-C etc. IN ADDITION to KOI8-R. > . Although it may be difficult to reach the right person at the XFree86 > project (you did succeed once), you did not even bother to make sure the > FreeBSD's XFree86 ports use the correct fonts and names -- for YEARS -- > until Maxim improved the present situation... Now, all of a sudden, > standards suddenly started to matter and practical issues such as > diskspace and X-server's memory stopped... As I already say, both Cyrillic and Russian naming of KOI8-R are nice for me, so I don't bother. > = ISO 8859-15 differs from ISO 8859-1 only by 8 characters and is "modern", > = but nobody suggest to silently replace ISO 8859-1 fonts with 8859-15 fonts > = everywhere and so on. > > I would suggest just that -- if no application really uses those 8 characters. Yes, there are rarely used positions which are changed. > I'm not certain that's the case, though. But I'm certain about it with koi8-r > vs. koi8-u (or -c). There is no differences koi8-r vs. koi8-u and 8859-1 vs. 8859-15 in the matter we discuss. > And lack of counterexamples from you implies, that you are too. The Counterexamples are easy, f.e. FIDO newsgroups gated whcih use full KOI8-R pseudographics. > Sometimes a standard is discarded even without a formal replacement -- even in > FreeBSD (tcp_drop_synfin, for example). This particular standard -- koi8-r -- > was introduced by you, and it increasingly looks like your personal > attachment to it is affecting your judgement. koi8-r is not called back or discarded, it means it will stay forever. If you are not happy with koi8-r - make your own standard and tell people to use it. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message