From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Jan 1 01:36:37 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CBDE14220C9 for ; Tue, 1 Jan 2019 01:36:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.138]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A25A8E0F0 for ; Tue, 1 Jan 2019 01:36:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id e8yvgSAVM82Yce8ywgDp6E; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 18:36:35 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=NNSrBHyg c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=2ur7OfE09M0A:10 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=7Qk2ozbKAAAA:8 a=s1Xs-aBeAAAA:8 a=iQqyFwekEd0rDjR6F5oA:9 a=qSHSA_EsI6RiqerG:21 a=zjXkVx7VMbp_xoZ9:21 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=ZK3BHR1trZCpg7l7RswA:9 a=n4_6MPySRyTP360E:21 a=AXNzXeuQqxEyRvdL:21 a=H_gT-g27Ybh9JRCe:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=1lyxoWkJIXJV6VJUPhuM:22 a=Ni4qwCKS2BbQ6fws8yIR:22 Received: from [25.170.88.176] (unknown [24.114.38.248]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 72B15196B; Mon, 31 Dec 2018 17:36:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Cy Schubert Subject: RE: Speculative: Rust for base system components Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 17:36:39 -0800 To: Warner Losh , Eric McCorkle CC: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" Message-Id: <20190101013632.72B15196B@spqr.komquats.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfLufW4y1lJsdaUorMbcO7Qu9Zlkx2Lr8KxvTXx5yAK+k0KbtVQgXq6FdVQrioRaBlm7zKxrtEiC0BXL+4tpwECKpGEpLzz6AdIHAWgyZ8A+kpbHcc0RR NLnVCXjNKdzjalyL0vd+lhOHnrlhWlznqCots83vE3uUrkXg5ixZ9MG/Qb+IX52Y44WMvetHeYYaRfLOaTU7tbfpDvXbqhWB9DHgf7/mGbZE9EtpUma5i4LC +qsfuzBOX/9IMzTVJOg30Q== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 8A25A8E0F0 X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.89 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FAKE_REPLY(1.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-1.69)[ip: (-3.98), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-2.43), asn: 6327(-1.94), country: CA(-0.09)]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; URI_COUNT_ODD(1.00)[1]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: spqr.komquats.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.997,0]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[17.125.67.70.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[138.136.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2019 01:36:37 -0000 If it requires rust it s/b in ports anyway. --- Sent using a tiny phone keyboard. Apologies for any typos and autocorrect. Also, this old phone only supports top post. Apologies. Cy Schubert or The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few. --- -----Original Message----- From: Warner Losh Sent: 31/12/2018 07:48 To: Eric McCorkle Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Speculative: Rust for base system components On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 8:02 AM Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 10:41 PM Eric McCorkle > wrote: > >> Before I begin, I want to be clear that everything here is in the realm >> of speculative, long-term discussion. My goal is to start a >> conversation, not to propose anything concrete right now. >> > > Today, this is a losing bid. The cost for rust is high (both in terms of > people and added compile time), it's not well supported on all our > architectures (and its robustness on the ones it does support has only be= en > tested in limited scenarios), and there's 0 software it enables from day > one. Plus, since it's a fast evolving language, we'll still need the port= s > to support those things that use it today since the likelihood of a versi= on > mismatch is high (and supporting 1 version would be a big stretch, multip= le > version is right out). So any sane cost / benefit analysis says: way more > cost than benefit, forget about it. We simply don't have the man-power to > maintain a high-cost, zero-benefit component in the tree. Lord knows we > have a lot of non-zero-cost-with-almost-zero-benefit things in the tree > today that we need to get rid of. > > In the future, when there are actual replacement things written, or there > are new features written, that will shift the cost / benefit equation. An= d > the circumstances about what makes up base will also have shifted, if we'= re > lucky, and we'll be able to have a conversation. We imported perl and tcl > on the speculative notion that people would build great things. That neve= r > really panned out, and they became a high-cost burden to keep modern for > only minor benefit. And version skew in Perl was terrible by the end. For= th > and Lua live in the tree because they have benefit (though Forth will be > departing, most likely by 13, and definitely by 14). They are also small > and easy to update to new versions. > > And we can't say, with certainty, that if a bunch of rust things show up > we'll use them in base. We'll have to see what they provide to benefit th= e > system. > > TBH, there's a stronger case for python than rust: there's actual python > scripts in the tree today that we have to install a port to use. And ther= e > the benefit, while not zero, is small and the effort is large compared to > just dragging it in as a port, so it hasn't been done. It's another fast > evolving language that requires multiple versions as well... > > So write something that everybody wants, that must be in base, and that > requires rust, and then we can have the conversation... > Just re-read this. It sounds a little more negative than I wanted to come off. I'd only wanted to say today the needle is on 'nope' and I hope people write enough cool stuff to justify moving the needle off 'nope' :) The last part of that message seems more muted than I wanted. Warner _______________________________________________ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"