Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2023 23:10:51 -0600 From: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> To: Mark Millard <marklmi@yahoo.com> Cc: John Baldwin <jhb@freebsd.org>, freebsd-arch <freebsd-arch@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) Message-ID: <CANCZdfqB%2BrOFw5kfOGT5=ug2u-RCwqNf8ht9xEv1eAFPyjH0Ew@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <D9640E86-BCC5-4FD3-ACB0-34CFD98D5971@yahoo.com> References: <D9640E86-BCC5-4FD3-ACB0-34CFD98D5971.ref@yahoo.com> <D9640E86-BCC5-4FD3-ACB0-34CFD98D5971@yahoo.com>
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--00000000000037165f060148c1c0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jul 24, 2023 at 2:59=E2=80=AFPM Mark Millard <marklmi@yahoo.com> wr= ote: > John Baldwin <jhb_at_FreeBSD.org> wrote on > Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2023 19:33:57 UTC : > > > On 5/23/23 4:46 PM, John Baldwin wrote: > > > On 4/27/23 10:19 AM, John Baldwin wrote: > > >> For 13.0, i386 was demoted from Tier 1 to Tier 2. In the announcemen= t > > >> of this for 13.0, the project committed to an update on i386's futur= e > > >> around the time of 14.0. The announcement at the time suggested that > > >> i386 would be supported less in 14.x than in 13.x. > > >> > > >> My proposal is that for 14.x we treat i386 like any other Tier 2 > > >> platform. That is, release images and packages would only be provide= d > > >> on a best-effort basis, and we would not guarantee providing them. I > > >> think we should also stop shipping binary updates for the base syste= m > > >> (freebsd-update) for 14.x for i386. > > >> > > >> A larger question is what to do about 32-bit platforms moving forwar= d. > > >> My proposal for powerpc, i386, and armv[67] is that we say publicly > > >> that we anticipate not supporting them in 15. That is, that we may > > >> remove them outright from the tree, or we may leave them in the tree= , > > >> but we do not plan on building packages or release images. Another > > >> option to consider for 32-bit platforms perhaps in 15 is to remove > > >> kernel support and only retain the ability to build userland. The > > >> goal of saying this now-ish (or about the time 14.0 is going to ship= ) > > >> would be to give time for users and developers to respond in the > > >> window between 14.0 and 15.0 so we can evaluate those responses as a= n > > >> input into the final decision for 15. > > > > > > We discussed this topic during the 15.0 developer summit and the > consensus > > > among the folks present (which is only a subset of our community), is > > > that there is still interest in supporting armv7 kernels in 15.0, but > not > > > kernels for other platforms. In addition, no one expressed a need for > > > full 32-bit world support for i386 and powerpc, only for compat32 > support > > > in the kernel, and lib32 (cc -m32) support in userland. > > > > > > One question for this is if we think we will have sufficient develope= r > > > resources to maintain armv7 kernels for the life of stable/15. We can > > > largely punt on the final decision for that until close to the releas= e > of > > > 15.0. I think for what we announce for 14.0 we can still say that we > > > are generally planning to remove 32-bit kernel and world support in > 15.0, > > > but may consider keeping armv7. > > > > I've posted a couple of reviews to add a WARNING to dmesg during the bo= ot > > of 32-bit kernels as well as to add a note to RELNOTES to serve as the > > starting point for the note in the release notes: > > > > https://reviews.freebsd.org/D41163 > > https://reviews.freebsd.org/D41164 > > > > Also, Mike Karels has been working on lib32 support for aarch64 that > should > > be included in 14.0. > > I see no wording about armv6 being removed earlier. > > At one time Warner had written: > > >> On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 11:48 AM Mark Millard <marklmi@yahoo.com> > wrote: > >> FYI: The old 2021-Oct-28 message related to armv6 removal > >> sequencing/timing has a new follow up finally: > >> > >> > https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch/2022-December/000313.html > >> > >> (Nothing about this changes the armv7 status.) > > > > Nope. > > > > tl;dr: armv6 packages will stop, we'll stop doing -current armv6 > snapshots, we'll move armv6 to > > an 'extra' architecture in universe for stable/14. post stable/14 we'll > tear down support for armv6 > > in base and later in ports. Ports mention armv6 ~500 times, maybe 1/4 o= f > them also mention armv7, > > and the vast majority of them mark things as broken in some way (though > there are exceptions). > > > > Warner > I'm still hoping to get to this... I think it's the last time on my 'wanna get done before 14' checklist. It is orthogonal to the 32-bit stuff. Warner --00000000000037165f060148c1c0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">= <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Jul 24, 2023 at 2:59=E2=80=AF= PM Mark Millard <<a href=3D"mailto:marklmi@yahoo.com">marklmi@yahoo.com<= /a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0= px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">J= ohn Baldwin <jhb_at_FreeBSD.org> wrote on<br> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2023 19:33:57 UTC :<br> <br> > On 5/23/23 4:46 PM, John Baldwin wrote:<br> > > On 4/27/23 10:19 AM, John Baldwin wrote:<br> > >> For 13.0, i386 was demoted from Tier 1 to Tier 2. In the anno= uncement<br> > >> of this for 13.0, the project committed to an update on i386&= #39;s future<br> > >> around the time of 14.0. The announcement at the time suggest= ed that<br> > >> i386 would be supported less in 14.x than in 13.x.<br> > >><br> > >> My proposal is that for 14.x we treat i386 like any other Tie= r 2<br> > >> platform. That is, release images and packages would only be = provided<br> > >> on a best-effort basis, and we would not guarantee providing = them. I<br> > >> think we should also stop shipping binary updates for the bas= e system<br> > >> (freebsd-update) for 14.x for i386.<br> > >><br> > >> A larger question is what to do about 32-bit platforms moving= forward.<br> > >> My proposal for powerpc, i386, and armv[67] is that we say pu= blicly<br> > >> that we anticipate not supporting them in 15. That is, that w= e may<br> > >> remove them outright from the tree, or we may leave them in t= he tree,<br> > >> but we do not plan on building packages or release images. An= other<br> > >> option to consider for 32-bit platforms perhaps in 15 is to r= emove<br> > >> kernel support and only retain the ability to build userland.= The<br> > >> goal of saying this now-ish (or about the time 14.0 is going = to ship)<br> > >> would be to give time for users and developers to respond in = the<br> > >> window between 14.0 and 15.0 so we can evaluate those respons= es as an<br> > >> input into the final decision for 15.<br> > > <br> > > We discussed this topic during the 15.0 developer summit and the = consensus<br> > > among the folks present (which is only a subset of our community)= , is<br> > > that there is still interest in supporting armv7 kernels in 15.0,= but not<br> > > kernels for other platforms. In addition, no one expressed a need= for<br> > > full 32-bit world support for i386 and powerpc, only for compat32= support<br> > > in the kernel, and lib32 (cc -m32) support in userland.<br> > > <br> > > One question for this is if we think we will have sufficient deve= loper<br> > > resources to maintain armv7 kernels for the life of stable/15. We= can<br> > > largely punt on the final decision for that until close to the re= lease of<br> > > 15.0. I think for what we announce for 14.0 we can still say that= we<br> > > are generally planning to remove 32-bit kernel and world support = in 15.0,<br> > > but may consider keeping armv7.<br> > <br> > I've posted a couple of reviews to add a WARNING to dmesg during t= he boot<br> > of 32-bit kernels as well as to add a note to RELNOTES to serve as the= <br> > starting point for the note in the release notes:<br> > <br> > <a href=3D"https://reviews.freebsd.org/D41163" rel=3D"noreferrer" targ= et=3D"_blank">https://reviews.freebsd.org/D41163</a><br>; > <a href=3D"https://reviews.freebsd.org/D41164" rel=3D"noreferrer" targ= et=3D"_blank">https://reviews.freebsd.org/D41164</a><br>; > <br> > Also, Mike Karels has been working on lib32 support for aarch64 that s= hould<br> > be included in 14.0.<br> <br> I see no wording about armv6 being removed earlier.<br> <br> At one time Warner had written:<br> <br> >> On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 11:48 AM Mark Millard <<a href=3D"mailt= o:marklmi@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank">marklmi@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br> >> FYI: The old 2021-Oct-28 message related to armv6 removal<br> >> sequencing/timing has a new follow up finally:<br> >> <br> >> <a href=3D"https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch/2022-De= cember/000313.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.free= bsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch/2022-December/000313.html</a><br> >> <br> >> (Nothing about this changes the armv7 status.)<br> > <br> > Nope.<br> > <br> > tl;dr: armv6 packages will stop, we'll stop doing -current armv6 s= napshots, we'll move armv6 to<br> > an 'extra' architecture in universe for stable/14. post stable= /14 we'll tear down support for armv6<br> > in base and later in ports. Ports mention armv6 ~500 times, maybe 1/4 = of them also mention armv7,<br> > and the vast majority of them mark things as broken in some way (thoug= h there are exceptions).<br> > <br> > Warner<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I'm still hoping to get= to this... I think it's the last time on my 'wanna get done before= 14' checklist. It</div><div>is orthogonal to the 32-bit stuff.<br></di= v><div><br></div><div>Warner <br></div></div></div> --00000000000037165f060148c1c0--
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