From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Mon Apr 13 21:45:30 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB7862AA168 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 21:45:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) Received: from udns.ultimatedns.net (static-24-113-41-81.wavecable.com [24.113.41.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "ultimatedns.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 491McB4jDlz4FvJ for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 21:45:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) Received: from udns.ultimatedns.net (localhost [IPv6:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1]) by udns.ultimatedns.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 03DLjxF9087852 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 13 Apr 2020 14:46:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) X-Mailer: Cypht MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: In-Reply-To: <6a54cca8-e918-b676-4f83-1630e03b6b03@gjunka.com> From: Chris Reply-To: bsd-lists@BSDforge.com To: Grzegorz Junka Subject: Re: Ars Technica article Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 14:46:05 -0700 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 491McB4jDlz4FvJ X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.79 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.90)[-0.898,0]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.89)[-0.890,0]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11404, ipnet:24.113.0.0/16, country:US]; local_wl_ip(0.00)[24.113.41.81] X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 21:45:30 -0000 On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 10:49:52 +0000 Grzegorz Junka list1@gjunka=2Ecom said > > OK I've bit my tongue as long as I can on this=2E=2E=2E > > How is importing yet more Linux code into FreeBSD a better thing? Or ho= w > > is it *fixing* anything regarding FreeBSD=2E For clarity; I don't dislike > > Linux=2E I just prefer to use (Free)BSD=2E I'm frankly alarmed with the=20 > > apparent > > volume that Linux code is entering the FreeBSD code base=2E I noticed=20 > > much of > > the UEFI bits are also converted Linux bits=2E I suppose for a quick need= ed > > stop-gap solution it might be reasonable=2E But it appears that a=20 > > tremendous > > amount of time, and effort has gone into all this, and given the=20 > > previously > > mentioned lack of man-power=2E It seems unlikely that any of this will be > > replaced with a FreeBSD equivalent=2E I'm not blowing smoke here=2E I=20 > > earmarked > > some time that I wouldn't be taking contracts so that I could invest so= me > > time on FreeBSD concerning "nits" I had that I thought could improve=20 > > things > > a bit=2E I looked into taking the time to make it nearly/fully POSIX=20 > > complaint=2E > > Browsing the code=2E It was clear I wouldn't stand a chance unless I=20 > > started > > at ~9=2Ex where it starts to go sideways in fairly rapid succession=2E So I > > decided to look elsewhere=2E I've had some nits with the Graphics dept=2E s= o > > I thought I'd look to see where I could best spend my efforts=2E Then=20 > > the new > > Xorg landed=2E Well that's going a *completely* different direction than = it > > was, and I don't think I want to participate in that new direction=2E > > I've finally landed on working on bolstering sc/syscons in an effort to > > provide graphics mode switching and detection to it=2E > > >=20 > Thankfully, Linux code can't enter FreeBSD base because of different=20 > licensing=2E >=20 > I hope you don't advocate for re-implementing drivers for FreeBSD? What= =20 > about NVidia drivers that aren't even distributed with source code?=20 > Surely, they provide binary packages for FreeBSD, but without support=20 > for Vulkan for example=2E Without any documentation of the hardware ports= =20 > how this could be even achieved? >=20 > Besides, I am happy when I see a vendor or developer supports Linux,=20 > apart from the usual Windows or Mac, not even mentioning FreeBSD=2E Many=20 > don't even differentiate beyond Linux, listing support for FreeBSD under= =20 > Linux and other distro sections! >=20 > I think we need to be pragmatic about it=2E Neither AMD nor NVidia will=20 > provide FreeBSD drivers and FreeBSD can't implement those drivers,=20 > either for objective reasons (man power) or because it's not feasible=20 > (NVidia)=2E If we can reuse existing drivers that the manufacturers are=20 > releasing and updating frequently, and only focus on the compatibility=20 > layer, then why not? Agreed=2E The challenges are many=2E How? How have we managed so far? Yes=2E We've been (seemingly) forced to import video blobs for some (G|A)PUs=2E But what of the others? What of the French driver project; Nouveau? How have they managed? Granted it *too* is Linux based=2E But they got there *somehow*= =2E Would it be a worthy venture to start a project like that that either imports && recobbles that project into "native" code? Or? I've been at this for over 50yrs, and I've amassed more hardware than you could imagine=2E Need to get FreeBSD on a Mac SE dsdd? NP=2E a PDP? Oh wait, that was done l-o-n-g ago=2E But I've got several models available -- just in case=2E I'm serious=2E I'm willing to participate in whatever capacity I can=2E But IMHO importing Linux stuff isn't really "keeping ahead of the curve"=2E >=20 > --GrzegorzJ >=20 >=20 --Chris -- UNIX is like Ice Cream=2E It comes in several flavors=2E But in the end, it's still Ice Cream=2E