From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Apr 30 11:26:10 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD21016A4CE for ; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:26:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtp811.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp811.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.170.81]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2A12343D48 for ; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:26:09 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from krinklyfig@spymac.com) Received: from unknown (HELO smogmonster.com) (jtinnin@pacbell.net@64.173.27.15 with plain) by smtp811.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2005 11:26:08 -0000 From: Joshua Tinnin To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 04:26:05 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.8 References: <3121.216.177.243.38.1114856874.localmail@webmail.dnswatch.com> In-Reply-To: <3121.216.177.243.38.1114856874.localmail@webmail.dnswatch.com> X-Face: "u-%.52Z_uQCP'Vdj{95/n*(sgAAm`F/p'b0zo%-DuBTdZ*qW!!/idDBRjkFfJD[Qe&>=?utf-8?q?=5F2=0A=09?=<}OGsEY~)n?NywZRi9xm-jH_VPg"8nTSzo:r8;U3oTQz|@z)|>%i+MRY2Y#>s~X`sV$&t"=?utf-8?q?=0A=09AkQ=5EU3rJIFCU=3F=5DcC=27F=26fY4=23Jf-=7D=3F7x?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200504300426.06174.krinklyfig@spymac.com> cc: /dev/null Subject: Re: cleanup-boot.messages+overhaul-install X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:26:10 -0000 On Sat 30 Apr 05 03:27, "/dev/null" wrote: > Another thing I *really* hate, is > not knowing that installing this Word Proccessor will start this > chain that ultimately installs an additional 750MB of Gnome $#it that > I have absolutely no use for, and additionally installs another 350MB > of Multimedia and related Sound servers, daemons on my system, when > there isn't even a PC speaker hooked up to the thing. SO, I'd really > like to figure out a better way to handle ports - both through > Sysinstall and *hopefully* through ports as well. I empathize with your frustration, but this is not an issue with FreeBSD, it's an issue with the way large desktop suites like Gnome handle dependencies. It's the same with KDE, and it's true whether or not you're installing it on FreeBSD, Slackware, Solaris or what have you. The concept behind these suites is that it should provide everything a "typical" desktop user would need, and everything is more or less bundled together - true, this concept originates with the Mac/Windows approach (more the latter), and I understand why people are loathe to accept such a concept on a *nix system, but in truth these desktops have accomplished higher adoption rates than would be possible otherwise, and they do contain many useful tools. And, honestly, that concept is also what's driving your proposal. I'm not sure if you'd ever be able to change this, as the concept is driven by the respective projects' overarching philosophies. Personally, I'd *love* to be able to install KMail without having to install kdebase and kdelibs, not to mention the rest of kdepim, but trying to convince the KDE project to uncouple it from the rest of the project is rather like tilting at windmills. That being said, it would be helpful in some circumstances to know exactly what will be pulled in by installing a part of one of these suites (i.e., most of the rest of the suite, or at least its base and libraries), but that is already possible, if not readily apparent to a new user. There are dependencies which are pulled in by large ports which sometimes do not need to be there to install the original needed port (dependencies recursing in odd directions), but in general ports does work very well for the large number of projects within it, and it does so without being needlessly complicated, though it does contain a lot of complexity. It does have some flaws, but the fact that it simplifies recursive dependencies (as much as it's allowed), and the ability to tailor individual aspects of it to my own needs through changing Makefiles and patches locally, is what keeps me using it. Local compilation allows for so much, but it can be needlessly complex, and ports makes all the parts come together, most of the time without issue, but if there is an issue it usually can be fixed. Plus, I plain like to compile apps locally ... call me crazy (wouldn't be the first time ;) Just give me the tools and don't put a hood over the engine, I can handle the rest, which seems to be what drives FreeBSD and attracts people to it, and it's why I keep using it. - jt