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Date:      Sat, 2 Sep 2000 16:45:40 -0500 (CDT)
From:      Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.org>
To:        Daniel Schrock <dschrock@enteract.com>
Cc:        questions@freebsd.org, fuzzybuffalo@mmcable.com
Subject:   Re: Non-biased FreeBSD vs. Linux comparision
Message-ID:  <14769.29956.459083.96405@guru.mired.org>
In-Reply-To: <87005372@toto.iv>

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To get this out of the way now (and justify posting to -questions):

> On a semi-unrelated note, does anyone know of a FreeBSD app that would
> boot me directly to an X-login?

Look for the line in /etc/ttys with "xdm" in it, and change it from
off to on. Personally, I don't run that way, so I haven't tried it.

Daniel Schrock writes:
> Nimrod Mesika wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 11:33:39AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, 22 August 2000 at 18:30:33 -0300, Christian Jacken wrote:
> > > I like to think that http://www.daemonnews.org/200006/dadvocate.html
> > > is relatively unbiased.
> > Personally, I like the way the FreeBSD project is managed using a
> > single CVS repository. The build-everything-from-source attitude is
> > what really made the difference for me.

That helps, yes indeed. I also like the ports system as compared to
the RPM system. It's not at all clear I *can* compile all the rpms I
find from source, due to differences in Linux distributions.

> Personally, I think the best way to get a non-biased opinion is to run
> both yourself and do your own comparison.

Yup. That's the only way to compare it to *your* needs.

> My gateway is FreeBSD-4.1 and my workstation is Mandrake-7.1.  I also
> have a Quake3 server running Mandrake 7.1 as well.
> As a workstation, I prefer Linux.  My soundcard was setup
> automatically.  Mandrake gave me every window manager by default and
> X-Setup was hassle-free.  And I actually like the X-Windows Login, no
> need for straight command line unless I want to.  

Well, I installed Mandrake 7.1 on a test system (it currently has
-current, Mandrake 7.1 and Win98SE on it, and I overwrote BeOS
partition when I installed Linux). I wanted to check on Linux support
for USB modems, as the one I have works fine on Windows (but I don't
have source), isn't recognized by BeOS, and is flaky on FreeBSD.

<RANT REASON=INEEDTO>

The first thing I found was that the default install *insisted* on
having two partitions. BSD's slice mechanism is *much* saner. I can
use multiple partitions (in fact, I have one disk on my workstation
that for legacy reasons has two BSD partitions), but if I only have
one to spare, things still work.

So I went with the "install it in a Windows file" option, and then
went away to do other things. Well, it installed a GUI by default -
which I didn't want. It installed a boot manager (never mind that I
already had GRUB installed) and screwed up my boot sequence. It didn't
install sources, and it wasn't at all clear where the documentation -
if any - was installed. It very much reminded me of a well-known
legacy desktop OS.

To fix the boot sequence I copied an image of the Windows partition
back. I then tried a second install, using expert mode. This worked
better - it didn't insist on two partitions, but would run without
swap. It still wanted to install GRUB, but let me tailor it. However,
it didn't give me enough control to boot the FreeBSD partition - even
though GRUB knows how to boot that.  I did manage to install it
without starting xdm (as an aside, I don't install the X server on the
FreeBSD install; I just install the X clients). However, I could *not*
convince the install process that I didn't want to configure the X
server. I had to quit before it could complete. Gru knows what that
broke. It did install sources - well, kernel source, anyway. Everything
else seemed to be missing. It still wasn't clear where the documentation
was.

I then went through the process of configuring the thing. NFS mounts
from my workstation, networking, and such like all went fine. No sshd,
though :-(. That meant my standard access methods wouldn't work. Oh
well. It also insisted on putting up the Mandrake/Linux logo on the
top half of the login screen, which is a nasty thing to do to an
innocent monitor. There were some other oddities, but they weren't bad
enough to stick in my memory.

The ls defaulted to an incredibly ugly color thing, which drove me
crazy. Turning it off in my .profile wasn't enough - it had to be
turned off in /etc/profile *as well*. Even that wasn't enough - it's
also in /etc/rc.d/<blather>.sh, or some such. In order to make the
system more colorful, they alias ls to the same thing *four
times*. Bleah.

On to the real work. Checking the sources, I find support for USB
modems that support ACM - which is what FreeBSD supports. However, on
boot, I get a long string of error messages from the modem, and no
modem. So I dig up the ISBN from the box, and sign up for support.

After registering, I send them a note saying "This USB modem isn't
working, here are the boot error messages." Answer: "We don't support
that modem."

Ugh. Ok, they answered the question but didn't help with the
problem. Another reminder... I ask how to tell which USB modems *are*
supported. The reply that comes back tells me how to recognize
WINmodems that work, and talks about internal cards! They didn't even
answer the question this time! So I sent back a reply pointing out
that this was *not* a winmodem; it wasn't even an internal modem. It
was an *external* modem attached to a serial line on the computer. No
response as yet.

I've used Linux before - back before there were any commercial vendors
for it. Getting X setup and working well was a major PITA. However,
the results looked more like Unix than Mandrake did. The sources were
there; the documentation was where I expected it to be. It was
something I recommended to people with no qualms whatsoever, knowing
that what they were getting was enough like a Unix system that I could
help them with it.

This, on the other hand, was something else. I know I'm a grey-bearded
old curmudgeon, but I wouldn't feel comfortable recommending this to
someone. My overall impression is that, in the rush to be as
"friendly" as Windows, Mandrake has adopted the worst features of
Windows. Mostly, that's configuring things the way *they* want them,
without any regard for how someone else might want them. But it
includes a support system that's absolutely useless except for the
most trivial problems.

If I don't get an answer from them on the "What USB modems are
supported" soon, I'm going to reinstall BeOS over this stuff.

</RANT>

	<mike



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