From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 26 17:41:52 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99911E5A for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2012 17:41:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from imp@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-oa0-f54.google.com (mail-oa0-f54.google.com [209.85.219.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42D5D8FC08 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2012 17:41:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-oa0-f54.google.com with SMTP id n9so3754726oag.13 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2012 10:41:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=sender:subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer :x-gm-message-state; bh=GSMyaC7OdiQpex6A6hzCfCIrdVdOvj5WxwyTYNPJE0c=; b=Gv5zyW3JQ1KPUJKKD+LDcAMWVxemZ7TUszcr7+rm96hNVCYjk+YdTBimwK6yAPSBBo eZFHJAq4Fq0v6IYSfWoH3XEorizGHFoYot3MfpBRi/Kad3/13sKm20gqyVxdLccXs2Tk fJYvLzk40FNBWjuNBigyRLDkh9cRff+uGRdKKuB7MdFwT2BE19w8wjaU+URkQ1U+v1Pf w1IhVan4LSBe3XxQhNwpRi2tEFSz4gb3gK+GcbKFTGzymwZ/T3exyPxguamtPCAbIpKl SL809VihiaJfzDNMxSMKknpNzg1SBAa5BOYa6Ay14qfQ5uK+p2DJRcbztW5vXTC3Am/n a6bA== Received: by 10.60.9.167 with SMTP id a7mr16439292oeb.61.1351273311599; Fri, 26 Oct 2012 10:41:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.101.53] ([209.117.142.2]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l9sm1535868oec.5.2012.10.26.10.41.47 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 26 Oct 2012 10:41:49 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Warner Losh Subject: Re: [CFT/RFC]: refactor bsd.prog.mk to understand multiple programs instead of a singular program Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Warner Losh In-Reply-To: <20121026172106.BA86458094@chaos.jnpr.net> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 11:41:46 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <21B6834A-C986-4103-B395-D1F23FB23380@bsdimp.com> References: <201210020750.23358.jhb@freebsd.org> <201210021037.27762.jhb@freebsd.org> <127FA63D-8EEE-4616-AE1E-C39469DDCC6A@xcllnt.net> <20121025211522.GA32636@dragon.NUXI.org> <3F52B7C9-A7B7-4E0E-87D0-1E67FE5D0BA7@xcllnt.net> <20121025225353.86DA658094@chaos.jnpr.net> <20121026050130.GL35915@deviant.kiev.zoral.com.ua> <20121026062356.3143A58094@chaos.jnpr.net> <37989A40-4DBD-48C8-BD65-16C7C41454B6@bsdimp.com> <20121026172106.BA86458094@chaos.jnpr.net> To: "Simon J. Gerraty" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlpznaVmy5NaOL7bzBOGPQMuIBirekYU2VS4evnr9ceRAS9VyVTYgkrl2W6hD4exJvTfowO Cc: Konstantin Belousov , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Marcel Moolenaar X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 17:41:52 -0000 On Oct 26, 2012, at 11:21 AM, Simon J. Gerraty wrote: >=20 > On Fri, 26 Oct 2012 08:27:06 -0600, Warner Losh writes: >> And we've had the :U and :L for a similar period of time as well. =3D >=20 > Sorry, I didn't mean to imply age has anything to do with it. > The doc I refered to makes it clear that the two sets of conflicting > modifers were introduced at about the same time. >=20 >> Why can't there be a make target that turns them on in FreeBSD compat = =3D >> mode. You could then just drop those into bsd.port.mk and be done = with =3D >=20 > Because then you would lose the functionality that the alternative > modifiers provide. Imagine throwing away the ability in /bin/sh to = do${foo:-bar} > Also it would perpetuate the divergence in syntax for little reason. It's called a transition period for a reason. The historical use has = permeated itself into many places, not all of which are obvious. For many years, sun had two shells so that old shell scripts would work = until they could be adapted to the new shell's syntax. So your argument = rings a bit hollow. Compatibility always has been about being = compatible, not about growing the feature set or purposely leaving = features out. > BTW there are currently < 300 makefiles in ports/ affected by the > transition to bmake, and there were an even smaller number in src/. And there are many companies (I know of at least two) that have enough = infrastructure that depend on these modifiers that moving to 10 will be = hard for them. Stupid (in their view) incompatibilities like this are a = disincentive to upgrade or keep with FreeBSD. Easing the transition for = them will help keep them in the fold. It is no different than keeping = old IOCTLs around for a release or three to ease that burden. Warner