Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 19:13:06 +0300 From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com> To: Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> Cc: Aryeh Friedman <aryeh.friedman@gmail.com>, virtualization@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Using bhyve to develop and OS -- tips on how? Message-ID: <CAOgwaMvYfpshBtu0JcBS07T4q4Wr5m%2BwzjE3N3GBVSqZ0LmjXg@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6B196318-29A4-479B-BC12-99EBBB69397E@iitbombay.org> References: <CAGBxaXmJYkiAP99RvjMkyOUqz9=BzNOTjTiQgf7EppRw2KfmHQ@mail.gmail.com> <6B196318-29A4-479B-BC12-99EBBB69397E@iitbombay.org>
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[-- Attachment #1 --] On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 1:54 PM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote: > You may be better off using qemu, at least initially as “legacy” booting > requires jumping through a few more hoops. Another suggestion is to check > out wiki.osdev.org. There are a lot of useful resources on this site. > > On Jan 15, 2022, at 1:29 AM, Aryeh Friedman <aryeh.friedman@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > I want to develop a OS completely from scratch, i.e. starting with the > first instruction encountered after POST and everything above it (mostly > for fun). > > I want to use bhyve to do this any tips on how to get started (I have > found a few tutorials on how to do the asm part of a MBR but that's about > as far as I have gotten). > > -- > Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org > > Dear Aryeh , https://wiki.osdev.org/Required_Knowledge >From the beginning of above page : " Required Knowledge If you think you can skip this, it's probably just for you. Writing an OS is not a beginner's task. In fact, writing an OS is usually considered the most difficult programming task. You will need above-average programming skills before even considering a project like this. ..... " If you want to take such a difficult road to pursue , you may do the following : Study the bug reports , or GSOC projects , or projects to be handled by the FreeBSD Foundation ( or if you want more difficult problems , please search my mailing list messages to see "crazy" ideas , or please ask me "Do you have more crazy ideas ?" . You may be sure that I can find much "more crazy" ideas for you based on my goal to write a NEW operating system mainly based on FreeBSD , but from SCRATCH for ( not "Very" but ) "Large scale software stacks ( distributed , expert system based meaning learning , etc ... . ) ) If you confine your works on FreeBSD , if you want to be able to solve its current problems , this will mean that you are knowing how to write an OS because you are knowing the FreeBSD very well and are able to modify it toward a more mature state . At the end you will gain and FreeBSD will gain . A few suggestions : (1) Make a list of "panic" points . Eliminate as many of them as possible to protect the OS from crashing by determining whether the next application step will cause a panic or not ( check panic conditions before entering the next step ) and do not enter into it but return safely back by taking necessary actions other than "panic" . (2) At present many device behaviors are encoded into kernel related routines such as internal tables , constants , etc. . Design a device definition *.XML file format and move these internal definitions into these files with file names generated from device characteristics . For the detected existing devices and newly attached devices , generate the file name and search that file . If it exists , load it , else give a suitable error message . This allows to add new devices by the users by using device producing company supplied device definitions , or device definitions without requirement of modifications of kernel related sources . One more step would be to allow user supplied ( not "root" supplied ) device definitions and its associated device drivers loaded from userland . Such a system will be a very easy structure for the device producing companies because already they have device driver software , it is very easy to generate a device definition . The users will be able to use these devices easily by only attaching the device , storing its device driver and definition file into her / his space . This will attract the companies to be interested in FreeBSD , and produce more such drivers , definitions . This will increase number of possible FreeBSD users now repelled back due to difficulty of use of the devices or complete lack of their associated software parts , by solving their problems . It is possible to define many more improvement points . If present problems are handled , they will inspire many new improvement points which means you may continue to contribute to FreeBSD as much as possible . This will supply what you want to do and its very pleasing happiness ( with respect to my understanding of your intentions ) . With my best wishes for all , Mehmet Erol Sanliturk [-- Attachment #2 --] <div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 1:54 PM Bakul Shah <<a href="mailto:bakul@iitbombay.org">bakul@iitbombay.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"></div><div dir="ltr">You may be better off using qemu, at least initially as “legacy” booting requires jumping through a few more hoops. Another suggestion is to check out <a href="http://wiki.osdev.org" target="_blank">wiki.osdev.org</a>. There are a lot of useful resources on this site.</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Jan 15, 2022, at 1:29 AM, Aryeh Friedman <<a href="mailto:aryeh.friedman@gmail.com" target="_blank">aryeh.friedman@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>I want to develop a OS completely from scratch, i.e. starting with the first instruction encountered after POST and everything above it (mostly for fun).</div><div><br></div><div>I want to use bhyve to do this any tips on how to get started (I have found a few tutorials on how to do the asm part of a MBR but that's about as far as I have gotten).<br></div><div><div><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, <a href="http://www.PetiteCloud.org" target="_blank">http://www.PetiteCloud.org</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">Dear Aryeh ,</div><br></div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://wiki.osdev.org/Required_Knowledge">https://wiki.osdev.org/Required_Knowledge</a></div><div><br></div><div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">From the beginning of above page :</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">"</div>Required Knowledge<br><br>If you think you can skip this, it's probably just for you.<br><br>Writing an OS is not a beginner's task. <br>In fact, writing an OS is usually considered the most difficult programming task. <br>You will need above-average programming skills before even considering <br>a project like this. <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> .....</span><br><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">"</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">If you want to take such a difficult road to pursue , you may do the following :</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">Study the bug reports , or GSOC projects , or projects to be handled by the</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">FreeBSD Foundation <br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">( or if you want more difficult problems , please search my mailing list messages <br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">to see "crazy" ideas , or please ask me "Do you have more crazy ideas ?" . <br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">You may be sure that I can find much "more crazy" ideas for you based on my goal to write</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">a NEW operating system mainly based on FreeBSD , but from SCRATCH for</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">( not "Very" but ) "Large scale software stacks ( distributed , expert system based</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">meaning learning , etc ... . ) )</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">If you confine your works on FreeBSD , if you want to be able to solve its current problems , <br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">this will mean that you are knowing how to write an OS because you are knowing</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">the FreeBSD very well and are able to modify it toward a more mature state .<br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">At the end you will gain and FreeBSD will gain .<br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">A few suggestions :</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">(1) Make a list of "panic" points .</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"> Eliminate as many of them as possible to protect the OS from crashing by determining</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"> whether the next application step will cause a panic or not ( check panic conditions</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"> before entering the next step ) and do not enter into it but return safely back by taking</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"> necessary actions other than "panic" .</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">(2) At present many device behaviors are encoded into kernel related routines <br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"> such as internal tables , constants , etc. .<br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"> Design a device definition *.XML file format and move these internal definitions <br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"> into these files with file names generated from device characteristics .</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"> For the detected existing devices and newly attached devices , generate the file <br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"> name and search that file . If it exists , load it , else give a suitable error message .</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"> This allows to add new devices by the users by using device producing company <br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"> supplied device definitions , or device definitions without requirement of</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"> modifications of kernel related sources .</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"> One more step would be to allow user supplied ( not "root" supplied ) device definitions</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"> and its associated device drivers loaded from userland .</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"> Such a system will be a very easy structure for the device producing companies</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"> because already they have device driver software , it is very easy to generate a</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"> device definition . The users will be able to use these devices easily by only</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"> attaching the device , storing its device driver and definition file into her / his space .</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"> This will attract the companies to be interested in FreeBSD , and produce more</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"> such drivers , definitions .</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"> This will increase number of possible FreeBSD users now repelled back due to difficulty of</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"> use of the devices or complete lack of their associated software parts , by solving</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"> their problems .<br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">It is possible to define many more improvement points .</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">If present problems are handled , they will inspire many new improvement points <br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">which means you may continue to contribute to FreeBSD as much as possible .</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">This will supply what you want to do and its very pleasing happiness ( with respect to my</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">understanding of your intentions ) .<br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">With my best wishes for all ,</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">Mehmet Erol Sanliturk<br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"></div><br><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div> </div></div></div>
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