From owner-freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Mon Apr 13 23:22:01 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 049CA2AC50C for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 23:22:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) Received: from mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (mailman.nyi.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::50:13]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491PlX4FWSz4Lx5 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 23:22:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) Received: by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 91C912AC50B; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 23:22:00 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: x11@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9194F2AC50A for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 23:22:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) Received: from udns.ultimatedns.net (static-24-113-41-81.wavecable.com [24.113.41.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "ultimatedns.net", Issuer "Let's Encrypt Authority X3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 491PlX343sz4Lx4; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 23:21:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) Received: from udns.ultimatedns.net (localhost [IPv6:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1]) by udns.ultimatedns.net (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 03DNMSrD089495 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 13 Apr 2020 16:22:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsd-lists@BSDforge.com) X-Mailer: Cypht MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: FreeBSD X11 , Niclas Zeising In-Reply-To: <9fb362dd-0b3b-2c09-8ae9-26167f9d42ff@nomadlogic.org> From: Chris Reply-To: bsd-lists@BSDforge.com To: Pete Wright Subject: Re: Ars Technica article Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 16:22:34 -0700 Message-Id: <5d7dd8e81ae934adf7dfdf389faa5d15@udns.ultimatedns.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 491PlX343sz4Lx4 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.66 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.89)[-0.894,0]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11404, ipnet:24.113.0.0/16, country:US]; local_wl_ip(0.00)[24.113.41.81]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.76)[-0.765,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 23:22:01 -0000 On Mon, 13 Apr 2020 14:40:35 -0700 Pete Wright pete@nomadlogic=2Eorg said > =C2=A0What direction change are you talking about? > > As alluded to earlier; the importation of so much Linux code=2E On one > > hand; yes it shortens the time-to-implementation=2E But in the broader > > scope; it's more work (and time) in the long term for it's removal, > > and replacement -- assuming that day ever arrives=2E >=20 > this misses the key point that there is literally *zero* people being=20 > paid full-time to implement graphics drivers for FreeBSD, whereas at=20 > both Intel and AMD developers are being paid to develop drivers for the= =20 > linux kernel=2E=C2=A0 They are also getting access to documentation and oth= er=20 > resources on how these chips are implemented which I am not certain we=20 > have access to either=2E ??? why ??? This has *always* been what's said in response to th(is|ese) topics=2E Look I'm not saying this to be a bitch/whiner/troll, and I already have enough bikesheds to last a lifetime, thank you=2E But why do we not have at *least* the documentation? Is this something I can purchase, and *donate* to the project? Is it so cost prohibitive? If so, can a pool be created to acquire the needed funds? >=20 > as such it seems like a good opportunity for us to leverage this work=20 > that is being done for the linux kernel (warts and all) to get better=20 > coverage to modern GPU's on FreeBSD=2E >=20 > > The Kpi is also a kludge, and with it comes a performance hit=2E > How is it a kludge, and what is the performance hit in real numbers? It's *perceptible*=2E I don't need to cobble up a script, or install a benchmark tool to tell be when my finger is burnt, and I don't need one to see the impact, when I experience it=2E :) I meant *l*Kpi above; BTW=2E :) > Regarding perf numbers there is no data to back this up because there=20 > has not been enough work to get the testing & benchmarking suites=20 > working in a reliable state on FreeBSD=2E See (just) above=2E >=20 > As a counterpoint, I periodically run OpenBSD which as gone in a=20 > different direction of implementing their own drivers for i915=2E=C2=A0 I w= ould=20 > say subjectively the performance with their implementation is several=20 > orders of magnitude less performant than FreeBSD's - but you know what,= =20 > that is OK!=C2=A0 They have different objectives and approaches which is= =20 > totally healthy IMHO=2E Agreed=2E Who doesn't like having choices? It also helps add for perspective=2E >=20 > We just need to be honest that their are trade offs that will be taken=20 > with either approach - and perf is one of the most obvious and noisy area= s=2E Sure, and *that/those* arguments almost *always* end up in much hair-splitting -- very *non* productive=2E >=20 > > > > Is there really that little interest in the Graphics area/dept=2E that > > what we've currently been using couldn't be sustained/improved? > > >=20 > I would say yes! >=20 > Until this work began we had support for older i915 graphics but that=20 > development had stalled while hardware most definitely had *not*=20 > stalled=2E=C2=A0 The situation that we are at now is a direct result of thi= s -=20 > someone stood up and got things working, entropy took over and support=20 > was added and improved=2E >=20 > There is nothing preventing others from standing up and implementing=20 > non-linux derived graphics drivers though!=C2=A0 I would just suggest tak= ing=20 > a moment to understand how much of a lift this work is from a dev=20 > perspective, let alone support after bits land=2E=C2=A0 At the end of the d= ay=20 > most people just assume graphics to work so they can get on with their=20 > real work they need to accomplish=2E I fully appreciate what you're saying here, and I couldn't be more grateful for any, and all the time, and dedication put into this project=2E I'm simply *dumbfounded* that everyone *else* can manage *native* support=2E But we *can't*=2E I'm *really* interested in discovering *why* so I can perhaps initiate *change*=2E >=20 > Not trying to start a flame, just offering perspective from things i've= =20 > observed through this process=2E=2E=2E And that perspective is *greatly* appreciated, pete=2E :) > -pete >=20 > --=20 > Pete Wright > pete@nomadlogic=2Eorg > @nomadlogicLA --Chris -- UNIX is like Ice Cream=2E It comes in several flavors=2E But in the end, it's still Ice Cream=2E