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Date:      Wed, 4 Sep 2024 08:43:05 +0100
From:      David Chisnall <theraven@freebsd.org>
To:        "lain." <lain@fair.moe>
Cc:        freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system)
Message-ID:  <8CAA2984-2168-46ED-8F66-3CE65729D67D@freebsd.org>
In-Reply-To: <3wqj34x43r6pyah6fxrzbya7soz3ywe7bdk4poihaeh3hm2d6a@vwk3nh4jxl2r>
References:  <3wqj34x43r6pyah6fxrzbya7soz3ywe7bdk4poihaeh3hm2d6a@vwk3nh4jxl2r>

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On 4 Sep 2024, at 07:35, lain. <lain@fair.moe> wrote:
>=20
> About C developers being in decline, I actually disagree with that.
> I have seen younger generations getting interested in C the more they
> get overwhelmed by the amount of new languages to chose from.

This does not reflect my experience in hiring, the data I=E2=80=99ve seen fr=
om a major tech company, or the trends in open source contributions.

It is far easier to hire C++ developers than C developers. This shift starte=
d a bit after C++11 was released and has continued.=20

This trend is reflected in open source. Here is the OpenHub graph:

https://openhub.net/languages/compare?utf8=3D%E2%9C%93&measure=3Dcontributor=
s&language_name%255B%255D=3Dc&language_name%255B%255D=3Dcpp&language_name%25=
5B%255D=3D-1&language_name%255B%255D=3D-1&language_name%255B%255D=3D-1&commi=
t=3DUpdate

This shows the number of open source contributors making contributions in C o=
r C++ over the past decade. You=E2=80=99ll see that there are now more than t=
hree times as many C++ developers as C contributing to open source projects (=
I=E2=80=99m ignoring the last few months where it looks as if C programmers a=
ll gave up and went home, I presume there=E2=80=99s an error in the underlyi=
ng data).

For Rust, the situation is more complicated. Hiring good Rust developers is h=
arder than hiring C developers (there are no Rust developers with ten years e=
xperience because the language isn=E2=80=99t that old, and even though a lot=
 of people are learning it, there=E2=80=99s a lot of inertia). This changes a=
 lot when you look at the open source ecosystem because the fact that Rust i=
s new and came from the open-source world skews the people who learn it towa=
rds open source and towards wanting to practice the language that they=E2=80=
=99ve learned. Here=E2=80=99s the same graph with Rust added:

https://openhub.net/languages/compare?utf8=3D%E2%9C%93&measure=3Dcontributor=
s&language_name%255B%255D=3Dc&language_name%255B%255D=3Dcpp&language_name%25=
5B%255D=3Drust&language_name%255B%255D=3D-1&commit=3DUpdate

Note that there are still fewer Rust developers than C, but they=E2=80=99re i=
ncreasing and they tend to be more enthusiastic contributors.

David=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">On 4=
 Sep 2024, at 07:35, lain. &lt;lain@fair.moe&gt; wrote:</div><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><span>About C developers being in decline, I actually disa=
gree with that.</span><br><span>I have seen younger generations getting inte=
rested in C the more they</span><br><span>get overwhelmed by the amount of n=
ew languages to chose from.</span></div></blockquote><br><div>This does not r=
eflect my experience in hiring, the data I=E2=80=99ve seen from a major tech=
 company, or the trends in open source contributions.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>It is far easier to hire C++ developers than C developers. This shift sta=
rted a bit after C++11 was released and has continued.&nbsp;</div><div><br><=
/div><div>This trend is reflected in open source. Here is the OpenHub graph:=
</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://openhub.net/languages/compare?u=
tf8=3D%E2%9C%93&amp;measure=3Dcontributors&amp;language_name%255B%255D=3Dc&a=
mp;language_name%255B%255D=3Dcpp&amp;language_name%255B%255D=3D-1&amp;langua=
ge_name%255B%255D=3D-1&amp;language_name%255B%255D=3D-1&amp;commit=3DUpdate"=
>https://openhub.net/languages/compare?utf8=3D%E2%9C%93&amp;measure=3Dcontri=
butors&amp;language_name%255B%255D=3Dc&amp;language_name%255B%255D=3Dcpp&amp=
;language_name%255B%255D=3D-1&amp;language_name%255B%255D=3D-1&amp;language_=
name%255B%255D=3D-1&amp;commit=3DUpdate</a></div><div><br></div><div>This sh=
ows the number of open source contributors making contributions in C or C++ o=
ver the past decade. You=E2=80=99ll see that there are now more than three t=
imes as many C++ developers as C contributing to open source projects (I=E2=80=
=99m ignoring the last few months where it looks as if C programmers all gav=
e up and went home, I presume there=E2=80=99s an error in the underlying dat=
a).</div><div><br></div><div>For Rust, the situation is more complicated. Hi=
ring good Rust developers is harder than hiring C developers (there are no R=
ust developers with ten years experience because the language isn=E2=80=99t t=
hat old, and even though a lot of people are learning it, there=E2=80=99s a l=
ot of inertia). This changes a lot when you look at the open source ecosyste=
m because the fact that Rust is new and came from the open-source world skew=
s the people who learn it towards open source and towards wanting to practic=
e the language that they=E2=80=99ve learned. Here=E2=80=99s the same graph w=
ith Rust added:</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://openhub.net/lang=
uages/compare?utf8=3D%E2%9C%93&amp;measure=3Dcontributors&amp;language_name%=
255B%255D=3Dc&amp;language_name%255B%255D=3Dcpp&amp;language_name%255B%255D=3D=
rust&amp;language_name%255B%255D=3D-1&amp;commit=3DUpdate">https://openhub.n=
et/languages/compare?utf8=3D%E2%9C%93&amp;measure=3Dcontributors&amp;languag=
e_name%255B%255D=3Dc&amp;language_name%255B%255D=3Dcpp&amp;language_name%255=
B%255D=3Drust&amp;language_name%255B%255D=3D-1&amp;commit=3DUpdate</a></div>=
<div><br></div><div>Note that there are still fewer Rust developers than C, b=
ut they=E2=80=99re increasing and they tend to be more enthusiastic contribu=
tors.</div><div><br></div><div>David</div></body></html>=

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