Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:24:01 -0700 (PDT) From: patl@phoenix.volant.org To: Tim Gerchmez <fewtch@serv.net> Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-bugs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... Message-ID: <ML-3.3.901301041.1106.patl@asimov> In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980724054003.0081ea80@mx.serv.net>
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> At 12:54 PM 7/24/98 +0200, you wrote: > > >This is groundless mudslinging. You are making claims which you refuse > >to document; the only way I can interpret that is that you cannot > >document them, because they are untrue. > > If that were so, why would I take the time to report them in the first > place, just to be some kind of silly liar for the fun of it? And why would > I take 20+ hours to download 2.2.7 at 26.4k over the Net, just so I could > find a reason to tell lies about it? I think we have a mis-communication problem here; probably triggered by your rather hostile and inflamitory initial posting, which lead to a some confrontational replies. But you have to realize that nobody else is experiencing the problems of the scope and nature that you report. And since you refuse to provide sufficient details to allow anyone else to even begin to attempt to reproduce them, we are left to assume that they result from some sort of unanticipated pilot error. > I refuse to document them because I didn't write down specifics at the time > (my mistake), and no longer have 2.2.7 in my possession to test them again > and write down the details. Also, being simply a casual hobbyist and not a > FreeBSD developer or member of the core team, I don't see that it's MY JOB > to document these kinds of problems, simply to mention them. Let those who > have committed themselves to working on FreeBSD research the problem. I > get nothing whatsoever out of all this, including the posting you interpret > as a "pack of lies." It is the responsability of -every- user of -any- system to document any problem that they believe the developers should fix. This is true for commercial as well as freely available systems. I can pretty much guarantee you that if you had this type of problem with Solaris, HP-UX, AUX, NT, or any other commercial system, and you responded to it as you have here, you would not have gotten any better response. In fact, after your first refusal to provide details, you probably would have gotten a resounding silence. And it wouldn't have been a nice fast e-mail exchange - it would have been calls to a help line, probably charged to your account. If you had problems with a new car, would you just call the dealer and yell "There's a problem with this junk heap, I'm considering trading it in on a competitor's model" ? No, you'd take the car back in for their mechanics to look at. And you'd describe the symptoms, and under what conditions they occurred. And you'd answer their questions when they tried to clarify the problem report. Since you can't easily ship your failed install 'back to the shop', it is even more important to provide details of the problem and to work with the developers to diagnose it. You say 'Let those who have committed themselves to working on FreeBSD research the problem." Well, the first step in that research is to obtain details from the person who experienced the problem. If you don't provide enough details for anyone else to reproduce the problem, then you can't expect anyone to devote much time to it. Especially not volunteers. (I'm a professional software consultant. If you want me to look into the problem, I'll be glad to. It's $150US/hour. You pay for the time I spend even if I can't find your problem.) > >If you are unable to provide us with constructive criticism - or even > >a detailed list of packages or features which do not work - then I'm > >not sure anybody here will be sorry to see you switch to Linux. > > I'm not willing to go through another 20 hour download, no. If that means > I should switch to Linux, well... perhaps I will. It has certainly been in > my thoughts as of late. So you just threw the former download away? Unless the call was free, downloading probably cost more than the CD would have. And there are a variety of potential errors that can occur with a download. Waiting for the CD would have given you a non-volatile read-only copy that would also include whatever last minute fixes turn up from the final release installation testing. When you download before the CD is out, you are volunteering to be one of the final release installation testers. You certainly can't expect Walnut Creek, or anybody else, to maintain all of the possible different hardware and network configurations necessary to do exhaustive tests. Not to mention the time or people required. (The permutations quickly add up to a mind-boggling total.) They, and the primary developers and users, can cover the main bases; but there will always be fringe configurations, unexpected pilot errors, and even just different personal approaches to the precise installation sequence. I can assure you from personal experience that the same thing happens in the best workstation and software companies. The primary difference is that only employees and selected 'important' customers get to participate in the final tests. But those companies have thousands of employees to provide that test base. FreeBSD has a handfull of volunteer developers, and a large base of knowlegable users that are willing to take the risk by being 'early adopters', downloading intermediate releases, or even keeping in sync with the CVS tree and doing frequent builds. Given your hostile tone, I doubt that many within the FreeBSD community would be sorry to see you switch to Linux. In fact, many would probably chortle to themselves about how eager you seem to throw yourself from the frying pan into the fire. You will not find a free operating system which is more stable or easier to install than FreeBSD. Nor will you find one that gets better or quicker response from the developers when you encounter errors. You won't even find a commercial system with better or faster response from the developers. For some commercial systems, you're lucky if you get a response at all. (Unless you're throwing wads of money at them for a service contract.) But if you insist on approaching every issue in a hostile and confrontational manner, you will quickly gain a network-wide reputation for being a clueless arsehole that should best be ignored. I'm willing to bet that if you switch to Linux and approach your first problem they way you did this one, one of the responses to your complaint will be along the lines of "Wait, I recognize this guy - he made a real dick of himself on the FreeBSD lists and refused to provide any details about a problem that nobody else could reproduce. Ignore him." -Pat To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message
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