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[209.85.210.47]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v9sm4447828oto.72.2020.04.17.03.47.03 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Apr 2020 03:47:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-f47.google.com with SMTP id m2so1076052otr.1 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 03:47:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7ca:: with SMTP id 68mr2074472oto.267.1587120423218; Fri, 17 Apr 2020 03:47:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> In-Reply-To: <3f1496d1f598c84b3871b630f161256e152aca75.camel@tom.com> From: Tomasz CEDRO Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:46:35 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: freebsd should be rewritten based on microkernel architecture To: malaizhichun@tom.com Cc: FreeBSD Questions Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 493Xpg023gz3C2T X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=cedro.info header.s=google header.b=b+rqFqb7; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of tomek@cedro.info has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::331) smtp.mailfrom=tomek@cedro.info X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.86 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[cedro.info:s=google]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[cedro.info]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[cedro.info:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.3.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[tom.com]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; IP_SCORE(-1.56)[ip: (-6.99), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-0.33), asn: 15169(-0.43), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:47:08 -0000 On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 9:16 AM kindu smith wrote: > First of all, freebsd's architecture is very good, no need to invent > the wheel, but freebsd's installation interface and startup interface > are too old. It is time to make some changes. If you look closer and understand the approach is far more coherent, flexible, and elegant with its minimalism. We do love the way and we will stick to it because "it just works"^TM. If you prefer something more fancy a Linux would be better for you - choose whatever distribution you like, you can even start your own distribution. We do not want to impose anything on the user, but the user is able to customize the OS as he/she please, this "raw minimalistic approach" gives you freedom. Please consider that deeper than just "too old" - yes BSD is based on UNIX and we do respect the roots :-) FreeBSD is used in various projects as the "secret OS under" the hood that you don't have to share because BSD license allows that. For instance Sony PlayStation 3 and 4 is based on FreeBSD and you must admit its neither old nor obsolete. Also Netflix uses FreeBSD as its core OS for internet services hosting. macOS and iOS is BSD Darwin. You can build anything on BSD starting from Embedded Systems, Multimedia Workstations, Powerful Internet Servers. This OS is just for people with more knowledge and understanding what they do. > I think this will be a perfect design. Go ahead, make it happen, maybe you will gain user base and client base for your product, if you prove these functionalities in a real world industrial conditions I am sure FreeBSD community may consider such option :-) > In addition, you need to redesign the installation interface and a > complete desktop environment, because this is very important for > novices. I don't think Gnome / kde / xfce or the like is used anymore. > It is designed for Linux, and the systemd it uses is not supported by > Freebsd. We do not _need_ to change anything, really, all changes introduced to FreeBSD are well considered and must have some practical outcome. Mostly these are changes coming back from the vendors that use the FreeBSD in their own product and these products are already verified by the real world and market conditions. Please keep in mind that FreeBSD is a base for really lots of commercial and industrial applications. Maintenance and stable work is the ultimate goal, even for the new features, because your business depends on it. You cannot simply walk in and turn things upside down every time someone have a new idea. Sure, you can download the sources and play yourself, but you cannot expect people to flip the OS upside down with anything that could break backward compatibility and disturb maintenance, and most of all introduce anything that is not verified by the real world industrial grade conditions. If you take a closer look this minimalistic and realistic, maybe even conservative, long-term-focused approach is the core of the BSD. On the other hand you have liberal Linux approach where kernel API changes from release to release and no one really cares about compatibility and maintenance before they start acting because they are short-term-focused. If you want to experiment it seems like Linux would be more suitable sandbox for you, they like such experiments and they, we don't. Regarding the WindowManager, again, this is up to you what you want to install, because you are _Free_ to chose. We dont _enforce_ any particular WM because you may also like to use the FreeBSD to run as server. If you prefer GUI Server you can consider using Windows Server. If you really need SystemD go ahead and use Linux, we don't really like it here, and we don't want it here. I personally use Enlightenment WM that also can benefit form systemd but here on FreeBSD these options are simply not compiled in and it works just fine :-) > Freebsd should design a gorgeous interface comparable to macos, in > addition to a set of init programs comparable to systemd. It looks you are dreaming of Hybrid-OS, which is kind of utopia for the moment. There are various OS out there and you can choose the one that suits your needs best.. maybe different ones for different tasks. Remember that macOS is the BSD Unix system adapted by the vendor. If you look closer macOS uses BSD kldlstat not Linux lsmod. Also some people consider Linux SystemD a trojan/backdoor to the system. > Therefore, > both the bootloader and init programs need to be redesigned. And this will end up in the billions of $ loss because factories will stop working :-) Maybe the Debian_GNU kFreeBSD project would be of the interest - it runs Debian on FreeBSD kernel - then you could prove your theory in three simple steps: 1. Turn FreeBSD kernel into microkernel. 2. Run Debian on top of FreeBSD microkernel and get systemd.tom. 3. Run Ubuntu on top to get nice GUI installer and userland. https://wiki.debian.org/Debian_GNU/kFreeBSD > Only > in this way can freebsd and linux form a differentiated competition, > can freebsd survive the huge wave of linux. FreeBSD is very well. Lots of new features that do not disturb what is already out there in the field. The community is strong, dedicated, and people love it for many reasons. There are people who love Linux. "Apples and Oranges"^TM. This is the freedom of choice :-) Best regards :-) Tomek -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info