From owner-freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Thu May 4 12:12:02 2017 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-ports@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A5E3D5C576 for ; Thu, 4 May 2017 12:12:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scratch65535@att.net) Received: from mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (mailman.ysv.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::50:5]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CB2069 for ; Thu, 4 May 2017 12:12:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scratch65535@att.net) Received: by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) id 0BF01D5C575; Thu, 4 May 2017 12:12:02 +0000 (UTC) Delivered-To: ports@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B987D5C574 for ; Thu, 4 May 2017 12:12:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scratch65535@att.net) Received: from nm6-vm6.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (nm6-vm6.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com [216.39.63.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7D4367 for ; Thu, 4 May 2017 12:12:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from scratch65535@att.net) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1493899787; bh=OV00ZV//q8ccbyJXB0LwOqjZ105PPmTFwB6ioOahpH0=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=IIsxD6KMPSCyDm2CKPfBPvhBdGO0r8Ru7I2AyLeto2ChsZoy5oxLOvIMjTgEuUBd+v0QQucB8iiTkIVNozjlS5c+htyC38vftHhFmqXGE2KhrBYxPDBwnIw922TBB2iIpTGXerCE6ysb4d6+NbWcvsUal1xLPLJ9wxIUW1tG7FM= Received: from [216.39.60.167] by nm6.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 May 2017 12:09:47 -0000 Received: from [67.195.23.147] by tm3.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 May 2017 12:09:47 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp119.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 May 2017 12:09:47 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 562044.62121.bm@smtp119.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: AuvDQZwVM1kE2S8hSAmrcdd2qSyuuPT60kyDlTAzwm5wsEZ _z3i0bW2bDcKnx0av2jyou3OrfuMW5dYieBpEWMsV413BXTW_Rxu.IeJC4lw KTFqyJoBg0EyA70ttkNlrvkuzsLYGyTUAhjuUtXmfj6SCfxlZYqeV06ldfJ9 1dF.xpyRHPanuSjJYQqhqLi6PdKBd582H2.jNA.HD9x4EqUC03i.p3oB4joD ZH_HH6zQsrLEXFmHJYKog94HvJJxnrX.XdRxd8GEz4NyNalOY9XqGKoqM5NJ hyiQxGveErqnV5S070QrrOpY7wQyg1CDCVGyebjcQL.0fX9Pg9han4vr3Y_O fqIZUqmSuPLeRn0Fkuy1YDStAv0pTeskYkN8_HC2ztZ34PFRxhNRDRM21rcz b7uQUPt9NoBbHJfsosRBY62qZKot9KQ0oefdviiJ4P0NV3M5tPiIvBbukCtO JqGI8euWH0N6juWnlD1nL6MKsP1.3g7OhrExXo0_oD87j0ZazR2YtZjbQvvk XmqmbkWL42L2fviSVjUCG.TSu4JL4T8p5AD5GxpvxmMMLV3oQenSOt1lN X-Yahoo-SMTP: pPvqnOaswBBbYZLVYFzvU7GaowLcbNioPp.aF8KvOjZk From: To: Matthew Seaman Cc: freebsd-ports Subject: Re: pkg and packages Date: Thu, 04 May 2017 08:09:47 -0400 Message-ID: References: <2c69cd39-2cd2-3b6d-a2e0-f28a9fda7e05@infracaninophile.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <2c69cd39-2cd2-3b6d-a2e0-f28a9fda7e05@infracaninophile.co.uk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting software to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 May 2017 12:12:02 -0000 On Wed, 3 May 2017 16:53:41 +0100, Matthew Seaman wrote: >>> Trying to install the desktop package, I discovered that it's >>> bundled with at least 2 unrelated pieces of software: Thunar, >>> and samba44. That bothered me, but I needed the desktop. > >'Bundling' isn't the right term -- Thunar and samba44 are /dependencies/ >of the xfce4-desktop. That is: other packages that need to be installed >before the package in question will work. Sorting out dependency trees >like this is much of what pkg(8) exists for. I can't imagine what code could possibly be in thunar and samba that the xfce desktop would need, particularly since the desktop is very simple, and also because I've never got samba functionality for free after installing xfce which if you're right I should have done. But I'll check on that, and report back. That kind of tight coupling at the macro level *is* a very serious problem for the ports system, though. It's strangling it. How many ports just build, first go? Are there *any*? I suspect not. And yet the maintainers presumably thought they would. I stopped trying to build ports because I could never get a make to run to completion. There was always at least one dependency that (a) couldn't be found at all, (b) was the wrong version, or (c) failed compilation. That didn't happen when I was writing stuff under sco or sys v. It shouldn't happen with our ports system, either, because it completely prevents code freeze and stability, a basic requirement for high-quality software. The stuff being fetched from Timbuktu or somebody's cat's litter box should be cleaned up, built into a library, and be fetched from there subsequently. There should never be a dependency on code that the ports project doesn't control. >The thing that seems to trip most people up is thinking they can >substitute some other package instead of the exact dependency listed in >the package metadata. This is not an unreasonable request, especially >when you know your alternate package does exactly the same thing as the >one you want to replace. Unfortunately it just doesn't work right now, >and it would take quite a lot of disruptive change in the ports tree and >to pkg(8) itself to make that happen. You call it "disruptive" change, but from here it looks exactly like *healthy*, *professional* change. Really. Slàinte mhath!