From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Sep 17 23:09:18 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4F85106564A for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 23:09:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from mad@madpilot.net) Received: from micro.madpilot.net (micro.madpilot.net [88.149.173.206]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CFDC8FC0C for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2012 23:09:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from micro.madpilot.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by micro.madpilot.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3XLNM04tNpz2sW; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 01:09:16 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=madpilot.net; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:in-reply-to :references:subject:subject:mime-version:user-agent:from:from :date:date:message-id:received:received; s=mail; t=1347923354; x=1349737755; bh=FoH8UebDdYuoDQjhoo2kjLVbxF9pMiBi26f2mbOERec=; b= nWKUisFFNk+OPhRD2pYQAWbM7RB1Rb17zpBvXJNfQ/w7Iyfa4F0DGpXqkirlBY0/ /+k2RDTiUVBtzkhCwWEE6vBOozZv1K+wzpsRModJPICxxFJ2ueO31lISuDkRwRmS Z0AoHbfjW4jWvuwy4CE36pcqu9bKXzb9SHb0ryoujJ8= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at madpilot.net Received: from micro.madpilot.net ([127.0.0.1]) by micro.madpilot.net (micro.madpilot.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v5xiAZ0DnV3g; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 01:09:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from tommy.madpilot.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by micro.madpilot.net (Postfix) with ESMTP; Tue, 18 Sep 2012 01:09:14 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <5057AD9A.70902@madpilot.net> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 01:09:14 +0200 From: Guido Falsi User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120912 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Zhihao Yuan References: <5057906C.9090002@madpilot.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: My explanation to "a default DE" (was "Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD") X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 23:09:18 -0000 On 09/18/12 00:23, Zhihao Yuan wrote: > On Sep 17, 2012 4:04 PM, "Guido Falsi" > wrote: > > > > On 09/17/12 21:13, Zhihao Yuan wrote: > >> > >> 1. Maximize graphical user experience by officially implementing Wifi > >> helpers, auto-mounters; > > > > > > A good automounter definitely does not need a GUI. > > … > > BTW for this case too there is a whole set of problems due to > authorizations. various other OSes have solved this in many ways, most > common solution used to be to just make every user "root"(or whatever > the other OS calls it ;) > > > > So, my opinion is, we need to standardize both, or we can't provide a > modern graphical user experience. Standards can't accommodate the wide variation of uses a general purpose OS with such a diverse mix of uses as FreeBSD has. Whatever option you choose to standardize on you will end up with just a small portion of the users satisfied and the other unsatisfied. I'd like to FreeBSD to keep this attitude. "blessing" one DE is just the opposite and even if the blessing is just a blessed option between many, if successful it will tend to marginalize the others. > > > Also, you should also have a look at net-mgmt/wifimgr if you really > can't do without a mouse. > > As u can see, it's a stand alone app. But the most widely used wifi What's so bad about stand alone things? They are simple and less prone to breaking in mysterious ways > managers are always taskbar applets -- something bound to a specific DE. > -- we must standardize a ${DE}! What about people who dislike DEs and taskbar and all these kind of things cluttering their screen? What about ones using Plain old WMs?? In fact why should I have a wifi management GUI running all the time if I need it just a few minutes a week when I happen to be around and need to add a new network? Same goes for other gadgets(toys...). If working applets are what is needed I think it would be a better effort to adapt to the APIs the ones which already exist and give them the needed backend. Not easy, but would have the best reward. Anyway The blessing part is the problem. Everyone has it's preferences and wil be a very big bikeshed. You ignored the most important part of my email. Even before worrying about the GUI part of such applications there are difficult technical things to solve. Writing the applet is the easy part once the bigger technical problems are solved. The technical problems are not standardization ones, new general solutions are needed. It's not just a question of picking up one between various options for the authorization problems. The evident options are all suboptimal, just choosing one is no good. And this is just an example. Personally I have never used taskbars, toolbars and the like(well except when I have to use a very common OS with a mandatory taskbar in lower part of the screen by default), I like plain old Windows managers and use a simple mouse menu to launch the most common programs (I played with gestures, but were not satisfied) and use terminal emulators to do anything else. I have little knowledge of the DEs since I have not been using any for a long time, even though I do use some gnome software as a standalone program. So I can't help choose one -- Guido Falsi