From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Feb 26 05:27:28 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C95A16A407 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 05:27:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jonathan+freebsd-hackers@hst.org.za) Received: from hermes.hst.org.za (onix.hst.org.za [209.203.2.133]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A2F213C448 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 05:27:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jonathan+freebsd-hackers@hst.org.za) Received: from [10.1.11.1] ([10.1.11.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by hermes.hst.org.za (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m1Q5J4Ij088266 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:19:05 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from jonathan+freebsd-hackers@hst.org.za) From: Jonathan McKeown To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 07:27:30 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.4 References: <200802232322.45288.jonathan+freebsd-hackers@hst.org.za> <20080225203341.GA4150@kobe.laptop> <47C349D9.8090504@dial.pipex.com> In-Reply-To: <47C349D9.8090504@dial.pipex.com> X-Face: $@VrUx^RHy/}yu]jKf/<4T%/d|F+$j-Ol2"2J$q+%OK1]&/G_S9(=?utf-8?q?HkaQ*=60!=3FYOK=3FY!=27M=60C=0A=09aP=5C9nVPF8Q=7DCilHH8l=3B=7E!4?= =?utf-8?q?2HK6=273lg4J=7Daz?=@1Dqqh:J]M^"YPn*2IWrZON$1+G?oX3@ =?utf-8?q?k=230=0A=0954XDRg=3DYn=5FF-etwot4U=24b?=dTS{i X-Spam-Score: -4.399 () ALL_TRUSTED,BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.61 on 209.203.2.133 Subject: Re: find -lname and -ilname implemented X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 05:27:28 -0000 On Tuesday 26 February 2008 01:06, Alex Zbyslaw wrote: > Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > >On 2008-02-23 16:48, "M. Warner Losh" wrote: > >>This knee-jerk reaction against gnu find functionality baffles me. > >>The changes are trivial and make FreeBSD more compatible. It is such > >>an obvious no-brainer that I frankly didn't expect anybody to bat an > >>eye. > > > >So should I expect similar knee-jerk reactions to the just committed > >`finger compatibility' option to implement du -l for hardlinks? > > FWIW, a vote in favour of compatibility shims. > > It's just a shame that this won't cut both ways - it would be nice, for > example, if Linux find would implement proper units to -atime etc. The > FreeBSD syntax of -atime +12h is so much nicer than -amin +720. Ah > well, can but dream... I replied to Giorgos and Warner off-list, but (and this is the last time I'll say it as I'm starting to get boring): I don't have a problem with compatibility shims. I would hope that the requirement for them, and also the amount of utility they add, are balanced against the extra complexity and obfuscation they cause. In the case of find, already a fearsomely complicated command, I wasn't sure the balance had been struck - although it turns out that I had misunderstood the purpose of -lname/-ilname, and I now see that as a useful (pair of) option(s). What I wasn't thrilled about, and hoped to trigger a discussion of, was the apparent suggestion that FreeBSD must be Linux-compatible at all costs because weight of numbers makes Linux and GNU a de-facto standard. That's the argument which has allowed Microsoft to dictate some really bad software choices to the rest of the world - and if you doubt the problems caused by Microsoft software, try adminning a mail server and watching the zombie spam attacks from compromised Windows PCs. I do think that where we are having problems because Linux developers are stuck in their bubble and don't understand the concept of portability, adding compatibility shims to FreeBSD should go hand-in-hand with filing bug reports and hoping they realise the world is more than just Linux (possibly a vain hope) - because there will always be some differences: and after all, it was the GNU project that came up with autoconf, wasn't it? Jonathan