Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 20:59:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com> To: Chuck Robey <chuckr@picnic.mat.net> Cc: Jaye Mathisen <mrcpu@internetcds.com>, Jordan K.Hubbard <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>, Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Garance A Drosihn <drosih@rpi.edu>, Amancio Hasty <ahasty@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Matt's Commit status (was Re: 3.2-stable, panic #12) Message-ID: <XFMail.990603205907.vev@michvhf.com> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.9906032003460.82061-100000@picnic.mat.net>
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On 04-Jun-99 Chuck Robey wrote:
> [I rearranged the things since these folks can't be bothered to comment
> at the bottom]
>
>> Vince Vielhaber wrote:
>
>
>> > Not knowing the FULL story from both sides, I feel it'd be inappropriate
>> > if I were to comment on it. However knowing Matt's coding abilities,
>> > having seen the eruption here a few months ago, and the past splits that
>> > IIUC were due to core problems, perhaps an oversight board (for lack of
>> > a better description) consisting of zero core people and zero committers
>> > may help to stop or solve some of these erruptions before they spill out
>> > into the public's view. Who does a coder, committer, core member, etc,
>> > have to turn to if (s)he feels (s)he's getting the shaft? Not anything
>> > aimed at you (Jordan) or David, but let's face it - you two have enough
>> > to do without having to worry about the petty crap that seeps out as well.
>> >
>> > Vince.
>
> On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, Amancio Hasty wrote:
>
>
>> It is a nice idea and I have proposed it in the past however most likely
>> such organization will devolve to the current status-quo with core;however,
>> if the oversight committee is composed of individuals from companies
>> using FreeBSD it may actually work for committee should have a vested
>> interest in FreeBSD.
>
> I'm sorry, these are both crack-pot ideas, it's been explained again and
> again, and Amancio, for one, knows this, so I can't see why he went on
> this way. I will restate the obvious again, please read this before
> exploding, because I'll make it real clear. I am going to explain
> reality; if you're complaining about reality, go grab a bottle of
> bourbon, it will work as well.
>
> Reality: FreeBSD is written (not run, not administered, really written)
> by volunteers. These volunteers work on what they want to. Core can
> say NO, but they can't say YOU WILL, because the volunteers WON'T.
>
> People with no intention (and often no ability) to code keep wanting to
> tell the folks that DO code what to do. Impossible, this IS NOT a paid
> organization, the volunteers will just go away and code for another
> group that is less self-desctructive. Some group you're talking about
> that doesn't code has no authority whatsoever, and in fact no expertise
> at all to even pretend they know what they're doing, else they WOULD be
> coding. You cannot code without real experience, this is not some weird
> TV show with scifi unreality.
>
> The only group that these volunteers will listen to or respect is a
> group of folks that DO code and DO have the expertise. Trying to get
> together a group of dilettantes may be a marketing man's idea of how to
> go, but it will not fit FreeBSD's reality, and you cannot force things
> like that here.
>
> Just realize, IF you're loud enough, and succeed, the programmers will
> all desert you, and you'll have a nice place to argue, but no more
> software. Core here does an excellent job, with all the problems they
> face, most committers will agree to that pretty quickly, and they are
> the only ones with a vote. Look to reality for the reasons why.
No need for blowing up, so relax. You may wanna grab that bourbon
bottle yourself and take a sip.
1) Noone ever said anything about marketing types trying to run anything.
2) Nothing was ever said about telling volunteers what to do or not do.
3) Nothing was mentioned about the technical abilities of an appeals
board or oversight group.
4) Ever do or say something that someone told you that you're out of
line?
5) Let's go back to your volunteer thing. You have volunteers willing
to work for you - for free. It's no secret that in the past core
has been a problem for some (or maybe even many) of these volunteers.
They went away.
If there's noone they can go to, why should they (or anyone else) bother
to volunteer?
Earlier in this thread Matt was accused of running rough shod over everyone.
Looking over the history and hearing the complaints of some of those involved,
I admit not knowing both sides of the FULL story, that core may be partially
to blame. But who is there for the *VOLUNTEERS* to turn to? Core? They
may have caused the problem. Then once the emotions start to rise there's
absolutely NOONE for any of them to look to besides Jordan and/or David.
Like they don't already have enough to do.
It's obvious there's a problem with the status quo, but if the status quo
continues to run rough shod over any possible solution, status quo will
end up running out of volunteers and there will be yet another BSD to add
to the collection. Maybe the next one can be called ClosedBSD?
Now reread your own last paragraph. It goes at least two ways. How much
talent and support (technical, financial, advocational[1], etc.) are you
willing to lose before anyone's told they're outa line? For all that
matter, how much has already been lost? You used the phrase "crack pot".
Doesn't a cracked pot leak? Isn't that what's already happening? Talent
leaking out?
Vince.
[1] May not be a word, but should be!
--
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