From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 17:32:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5E9F337B507 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:32:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 49035 invoked by uid 100); 14 Apr 2001 00:32:25 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15063.39576.995081.739592@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 19:32:24 -0500 To: Terry Lambert Cc: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), kris@catonic.net (Kris Kirby), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), chip@wiegand.org (Chip Wiegand), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists In-Reply-To: <200104140000.RAA20921@usr02.primenet.com> References: <20010413232829.P82834@lpt.ens.fr> <200104140000.RAA20921@usr02.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > > The thing to do would be to have separate startup scripts in > > /usr/local/etc/rc.d or whatever for exchange, and ask the user to say > > sendmail_enable="NO" in /etc/rc.conf (any competent sysad should know > > to do that, surely?) > No. That is not to the level of ease of use which they require > of a product which has tehir name on it. Read their guidelines > on the Microsoft Developer web site, some time. Can you provide a URL for the document you're thinking about? There seem to be a number of things, but I can't find anything with specific, just general commentary. I'd really be interested in seeing it, as every time I have to use Windows, I'm amazed at how clumsy and unfriendly an interface this supposedly "user friendly" system has. > > Besides, I don't think one should encourage them to port MS Exchange > > for FreeBSD. (Or MS Office, either, actually. Unless it switches > > to some open XML-based document format, as I read somewhere they're > > planning to do.) > Yeah, and while you are discouraging them from doing that, > people are buying Windows for their desktops because of the > average estimated $2,500 per seat that a company spends to > train their employees not being portable to FreeBSD because > the applications on FreeBSD don't follow the Windows style > guidelines, and it's impossible to hire a temp worker who is > already trained on the FreeBSD specific applications, but it's > easy to hire someone trained on Office to fill in for a day > down in your finance department. That, of course, is why FreeBSD isn't going anywhere in an office. It can't break the monopoly hold that MS has on the desktop. > > > Really, FreeBSD is unsuitable for use as an MUA supporting > > > desktop machine, unless your users are much more sophisticated > > > than average. > > I disagree. > Of course you disagree. You are a geek, not a secretary or a > stock broker. I admit I'm a geek, but I still disagree. Once it's installed and configured, FreeBSD is perfectly usable by those people. It requires no more training tha MS-Windows does. It is *perfectly* suitable for supporting an MUA; there are no technical, usability or even intuitive issues (but see Raskin on intuition) that make it inferior to MS-Windows. The only problem it has is that finding people who have already drunk the MS cool-aid is easy, whereas finding people trained for some Unix toolset is hard. Sure, the average MS-Windows user can't install or configure the software on FreeBSD. Then again, the average MS-Windows user can't install or configure the software on MS-Windows either, so that's sort of moot. > > The reason most users use windows is that they get it > > pre-installed; they don't find it any easier to fix if they have a > > problem. > Sure they do: > 1) Call help desk > 2) Help desk reinstalls machine or brings you a replacement > 3) Go back to using the computer as a tool, instead of as > an ends in itself (like some geek) Of course, this isn't an MS-Windows feature. The exact same fix works in shops that install Unix on desktops. > > I have installed linux (around 2 years ago, when the GUI's were > > much less polished) for people having trouble with their > > windows machines, and they're continuing to use that linux > > installation to this day. > They probably get pissed when they get a PowerPoint presentation, > Excell spreadsheet, or Word document as an email atttachment. That depens on the software that's been installed. > Or you installed the entire shop that way, and they are a small > closed shop that doesn't often communicate with other businesses in > The Real World(tm) I'm not positive, but my experience with MS Exchange indicate that this argument implies everyone working in TRW has to have MS Exchange as a mail server. I've had more problems with people using Outlook/Exchange sending me mail with formatting information that didn't survive Exchange's SMTP gateway than I have with people sending MS Word docs or similar closed formats. > > Netscape for email and web browsing, > > Staroffice for basic word processing, KDE 1.0 desktop, and they're > > quite happy. Today, I'd go for FreeBSD with KDE 2.x; I agree that > > I couldn't ask them to install it themselves, but if I did it for > > them, I'm quite sure they'll be happy with the end results. > If I'm buying an $16M package of sub-prime credit loans at a > rediscounted rate form Credit Suisse-First Boston, you can be > damn sure that the data they send to me is going to be in the > form of an Excell spreadsheet. And chances are that it'll load into StarOffice just fine. > If you do business with _anyone_ else using your computers, you > _can't_ live with a closed shop system. That's jus the way > business is. In other words, to have an open shop, you have to use a closed system. That's amusing. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message