From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Feb 19 16:18:22 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8556214F4D19; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 16:18:22 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F26B8CE7E; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 16:18:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id w861g363VMRX3w863gdgFp; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 09:18:18 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=TL87tGta c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=CFTnQlWoA9kA:10 a=H2chl1sJAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=oC-9f4RUFUvXFAz4hbIA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=1LKL4F7LEIE-fDNXaEJ9:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 Received: from android-68f84e02b5988183.esitwifi.local (S0106788a207e2972.gv.shawcable.net [70.66.154.233]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 19B41307; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 08:18:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 08:17:48 -0800 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <11a49d72-3158-1b9a-f933-6702d8f5c238@nomadlogic.org> References: <201902181650.x1IGoRsZ006131@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> <11a49d72-3158-1b9a-f933-6702d8f5c238@nomadlogic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: What is evdev and autoloading? To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Pete Wright , "Rodney W. Grimes" , Warner Losh CC: Baptiste Daroussin , Niclas Zeising , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Stefan Blachmann , FreeBSD Current , Steve Kargl , Vladimir Kondratyev From: Cy Schubert Message-ID: <362D8283-0B7D-402F-99CD-657021597955@cschubert.com> X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfKuof13Yc4iiioYbHxCv2yJx1+x6/cdJ29KQGaIWpX32n5M7lfm90/IJiya5vWiXXurgwdpqolULEKo2jPuCCUymSFErm74MiHTbC2gimXbPflpi0PIS nmLkx0SBT2uAgsKAzWq2/p4KZS1Mb3cIl+8WgroVdTJPKQtoIbUPj9prkVHUgGQFa8bLdy1f2dQ93m/+UgR1W1U9fbSeRUIO6DUNp3t3bdnB6SWSBgX3eTEI s9x2SbaNu1ecrOpWy4ROIZjGKiO0XcFwmpQsL5W0DcHFAMZSS7o0id1k8hMyms4DWPyC5ShqOxwDkUhml8VlrMKyuaX4ygZJXSq/08DAlnISiSEMoD40T43n 5xchx1PW9ASiEl54rE8aH9M2ItcT5g9UQlHrDwRHQS+JXtDFz6cN2rLdB+GKH6djiGbUgAmZxtEZMtRBvWhfbSJM6FKu9x2Ia/+EH3irfsouEbcuTkpb9iZJ MUjzLNfQD/J7Gw+WemIaLKifBwO29xjnZ4B4xg== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 9F26B8CE7E X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.24 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: spqr.komquats.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.979,0]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[11]; IP_SCORE(-2.05)[ip: (-5.54), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-2.59), asn: 6327(-2.02), country: CA(-0.09)]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[12.134.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[233.154.66.70.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11, 17.125.67.70.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 18:23:19 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 16:18:22 -0000 On February 18, 2019 9:17:37 AM PST, Pete Wright wr= ote: > > >On 2/18/19 8:50 AM, Rodney W=2E Grimes wrote: >>> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 9:12 AM Rodney W=2E Grimes < >>> >>> I don't know=2E I think the fact that drm2 doesn't support anything >newer >>> than 5-year-old hardware is a pretty convincing evidence that the >old way >>> is broken and doesn't work=2E >> But it DOES work, I am pretty sure we have 1000's of users on that 5 >year >> old hardware that are totally happy with the intree DRM2 that is in >stable/12, >> and some of whom have ventured into head/13 are having issues with >thete a >> "new" model (ie kmod broken by a base commit)=2E I know that there is >wip >> to get CI coverage for that, but wip is wip, and we need to start >changing >> the cart horse driver order we keep doing and get things right=2E Port >> up and working, with CI testing *before* we go remove kmod'ed code >from >> base would be a much more appropriate path=2E >> >> I think one serious problem here is the summary dismissal of things >> simply on the "5 year old" basis=2E Not everyone, and infact few now >> a days other than corporate buyers, can afford new hardware, >> giving the minimal performance increase in systems over the last 5 >> years the cost/benifit factor of a new computer is just too low=2E >I've put a lot of effort helping test and document how to get a usable=20 >desktop environment on a modern laptop=2E=C2=A0 there were two issues whi= ch=20 >motivated me to do this: > >1) my observation that many developers at conferences and online were=20 >using macOS as their primary desktop environment=2E=C2=A0 when comparing = this=20 >to the OpenBSD and Linux community I felt pretty embarrassed, but it >did=20 >explain the stagnant nature of our graphics subsystem=2E=C2=A0 people see= med=20 >afraid to touch things due the brittle nature of its hardware support=2E I noticed this too=2E And every time it struck me as odd=2E > >2) i was in need to an *affordable* machine with a warranty=2E >fortunately=20 >there are many affordable laptops at staples, best-buy and amazon - but > >they were all post haswell systems, rendering them basically useless=20 >from a FreeBSD perspective=2E Which is why removing drm2 was necessary=2E=20 > >after trying to get traction to update the in-tree drm subsystem i was=20 >lucky enough to sync up with the graphics team which was working on=20 >syncing things up with modern hardware support=2E=C2=A0 because of that i= 'm >now=20 >able to get my small startup pretty much all on board with FreeBSD=2E=C2= =A0 i=20 >use it on my workstations as well as on or server infrastructure=20 >(physical and AWS)=2E=C2=A0 i would consider this a success for our commu= nity=20 >as it's opened up the eyes to a whole new generation of devs to >FreeBSD=2E > >one thing missing from all of these arguments is real data=2E=C2=A0 how m= any=20 >people are on haswell era hardware?=C2=A0 i can tell from my experience t= he=20 >past several years the number of people who have post-haswell gear seem > >to be more numerous, or at least more vocal (and frankly easier to work > >with while squashing bugs)=2E > >i can also say that personally it would be great to improve support for > >systems requiring drm2 - but that gear is hard to come by, so we are=20 >really dependent on helpful collaboration from those who are being >effected=2E Drm2 is not required=2E My current laptop is 5 years old, an HD3000=2E The= previous one is 13 years old, i915=2E Both work perfectly with drm-current= on 13-current=2E Franky, I don't see what the fuss is about=2E > > >-pete > >--=20 >Pete Wright >pete@nomadlogic=2Eorg >@nomadlogicLA > >_______________________________________________ >freebsd-current@freebsd=2Eorg mailing list >https://lists=2Efreebsd=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current >To unsubscribe, send any mail to >"freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd=2Eorg" The only irritation with drm-current is after doing a NO_CLEAN build ARC i= s large enough that on occasion a video may not play because X is unable to= get the memory=2E Other than that it works better than drm-legacy -- with = no artifacts=2E --=20 Pardon the typos and autocorrect, small keyboard in use=2E Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www=2EFreeBSD=2Eorg The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few=2E