From nobody Wed Jan 10 17:36:26 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4T9FN54LNCz55SVd for ; Wed, 10 Jan 2024 17:36:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olce@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4T9FN53phYz449M; Wed, 10 Jan 2024 17:36:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olce@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1704908197; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=L/ubnpWSUR1TCeaE3Tlp35X+XVG9kVm1A5uuWWVvKZg=; b=j8ZjSrusbOOpxOFO+ZifYTPVWOwzL2S3QQT94/geJBi4scnNuikn/bAUKeueLWpgLupMrA I3WwbDV1WGTuJTb6oW9KdhAOJ6Qk5sq3OICwBeRb7ZNcR84V1ss6JQPeBMdenyQvr8o0fa thCjdqsUCkD27g6fTMPp0GYA8yGWH5vlU//ZbdWI3C4mK80JrkQM3IUxoGLQUWT1BzyUPA rq39mvt4SdJ5DzBFZ9ijxOm92M51VsRxiNeCwEQ+cS7m1Fc3oLnePnKmiNUGLYsK7jrGRO K1PVRLdNf0/Tw0R6CJO9Zz0TM8FR/yNCZSMHXg2mg/G4OBLkvVb9QxTgb60+Kw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1704908197; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=L/ubnpWSUR1TCeaE3Tlp35X+XVG9kVm1A5uuWWVvKZg=; b=eeN0vVh0Z5GmbbyT73c2TH6mLr0ugFbDxMjJd5zecPlkHnBmWMYj/FQSIvStPC2f2YRjfU BQvZEPbP7AniOudsADBiVAxjBgR7cEU8Jm9rswfN6Xb49TqhyoRWtOltOsGjAD+DJ9Pzon WwcBTBPRAdk+zCL7w9C11B5n0hA0BDNW9oRT+t0+xw66NVHcbiWiYJaFZg+fkZCBRS4sdn Tr5xh702bK3kV86i/SF8jn7jQqD2OpkVTV+/baFeMEplUKJq4xRxDuPpJi6wi4RkgzABy2 NzRRDKzxn3y/9ky+h7i1iT+lgVs24A849XZ/dnRlBqzdTc7OWJLUSbSv5tO/Zg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1704908197; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=GOpCA0eSYtw0eUREFPUTinFAMwE4fypOd+iWhbMsJxo7LhqxKVAtJCaW48q1Kjv9I4QTF+ MalRLsOInrgYad1MpIpvCR7T/YOORiK1pwabxy7L1sS6AKbppYUgOcq1OnHRdHIwpbJBNI H/hCU8s0X4aPIWupdkdu465Vq8eu8o4hpmrdAm4wsVxio2zGbwZ2iAY4Vqe/3b58UbfGw2 g1NCoBt/vW9MGx9cQnSIel9wQVA74i+HFb2RWZV7G3r+Q+7nOHvprylaQqVw66E6ZEm7Yx 3uVb3UhDSDRPMN09wj37sIs0Qi4XkS+eSF4/NNflOtBKM1BbTeGKoYuw2P0i7Q== Received: from ravel.localnet (lfbn-nic-1-525-172.w90-118.abo.wanadoo.fr [90.118.140.172]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: olce/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4T9FN50TkYz19w7; Wed, 10 Jan 2024 17:36:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olce@freebsd.org) From: Olivier Certner To: Warner Losh Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: noatime on ufs2 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 18:36:26 +0100 Message-ID: <2136329.mxFCRLsXLg@ravel> In-Reply-To: References: <1749331.ETpRK2a2Mi@ravel> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart32170606.pBcpzhPnll"; micalg="pgp-sha384"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" --nextPart32170606.pBcpzhPnll Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; protected-headers="v1" From: Olivier Certner To: Warner Losh Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: noatime on ufs2 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 18:36:26 +0100 Message-ID: <2136329.mxFCRLsXLg@ravel> MIME-Version: 1.0 > > Again, I'm not opposing anyone from working on "relatime" if they > > personally have a strong need and motivation. I'm not even asking for > > removing the "atime" functionality, which can have its uses. > > > > Yea, relatime has some interesting use cases: Is this binary / library in > use is one such case. The fact that you've completely omitted that use case > suggests that the analysis of atime's usefulness (or its lack) is at least > incomplete. Yes, but I never pretended to have completely analyzed the usefulness of 'atime'. See "which can have its uses" above. But I think there is already enough matter for the case of the *default value* for 'atime'. > relatime would work great on /usr/local where you have a lot of programs: > you reduce a lot of traffic. It's quite useful to know what packages are in > use or not based on when they were last accessed, not just last installed. Both the examples above prompt some straight objections on the current usefulness of "atime". First, unless you've disabled building the locate database in cron (enabled by default, on a weekly basis), access times on directories lose most of their usefulness. Second, if using an IDS, I'm afraid it's just game over. And even if you think you are not, '460.pkg-checksum' at least is readily there to much complicate, or even prevent you from, getting package usage information this way (it is enabled by default, and on a daily basis). The general point here is that a single access time is inherently fragile to interferences by multiple applications for multiple reasons. > I'm not sure this is a great notion to have everywhere. I think your > analysis needs more inputs. May be, but to me the case for the default value debate at least seems quite strong already. Regards. -- Olivier Certner --nextPart32170606.pBcpzhPnll Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. 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