From nobody Tue Aug 26 07:24:39 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c9zgt1JQ9z66PFv; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 07:24:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R13" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c9zgt0GGbz3XLb; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 07:24:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1756193082; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=K8TxbRtjnAfaWRQDJNRNikel29vdlhER15OKE5+eylg=; b=JIsu7J1+FqqOu1YgTVjiWnY5wBKU0nhQt2tMMswZSUE58yv7rnVmn3S8+Hnv0rtB8TD7S6 5ZG5Ve7gCemxv6GOqcgPzwpyXXq5lb0gcbtlB+Hw4o1flD4A3nbiW4O7RLESXTH1eVbtRJ ieHJ/MWBN80aYA2JwPckCdOqO0NWZR/TQhnJkkyBmIH4ISTToCl7RyDQlSjyX55o0j15Zb 9tK4PvvhiQCIvG+11uu8zFR++9kmUoP54XBqFR73+2gZ551HowPnmiQfUKkZGHiWm20TMr iMIty/OlkU0/I5RTkGJPDvQKql2VZllAQ/bNnmOUt4qDLKSFDoVawDWG3z3qlQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1756193082; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=K8TxbRtjnAfaWRQDJNRNikel29vdlhER15OKE5+eylg=; b=McQVGl7FkH1zbQNsziBMggKY/m68689vzYIn3uphGNj3TBU4Ddy4i/uRHRYeO4yeQZ+lTm rLU/3L/CQud1VqvCMVd31TJ8YmcIUNiY+fApNjF83Tg8sjl5yl+OC/LzsRfXesKi6whqGf 3PtaYwnHSQVpH6AscdWEpNfbgpymjGWs5GBjqiPn6nSaqXPPElemcYg/30dioO9PZAON3q yDdf9QNysN3tSkP2jSCYCJiG4ou1RR3Tc1xAqrZB8nYbkYzXQi9i5E6+glzvi117IFNmk0 4imcxAEvpSKxyIUu+MpHzHkW/6uKGp+Vx5Vy/mRaczauzViD+ScgYOYp3vkXmg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1756193082; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=CNCpAl2PjAzcSR0IY7MFsfLhQocB6VODcZg8Yzj/JIm2G22Y8jTurQU4TObv1QcUWQCChl oFFY3H9Mz/wTFXbB+eqJyKHSUlGMh+deylkAQ6JMKHMVId4nEw9xFCPLhQAprQFLreX/+y WdRYYAII1QhfVL2vjmNbKoUFIPRy1Dyuh/mnXUF6ll6NTG4s3LaKMPXdoSFF2M8wIKiX65 h5vGFovkpg+ls44nz5OKhJBWwoJtKa8gTsb14SWHvTZxvs5A7WWeCPEEDS9w4eoMo0nRPi PuMUZMkCFrbi6TeetepN5DNnXK6MzYozd/bwoGu63ao9xECs+yS/ev2Efq0+jQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from b.nours.eu (b.nours.eu [54.38.177.57]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: bapt) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4c9zgs5mkszNrS; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 07:24:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from bapt@freebsd.org) Received: by b.nours.eu (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C81BE14BEA; Tue, 26 Aug 2025 09:24:39 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2025 09:24:39 +0200 From: Baptiste Daroussin To: Vadim Goncharov Cc: Mark Johnston , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, re@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd-update and pkgbase Message-ID: References: <20250820011537.7a3ccb3e@nuclight.lan> List-Id: Packaging the FreeBSD base system List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-pkgbase List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-pkgbase@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20250820011537.7a3ccb3e@nuclight.lan> On Wed 20 Aug 01:15, Vadim Goncharov wrote: > On Tue, 19 Aug 2025 12:02:20 -0400 > Mark Johnston wrote: > > > Adding freebsd-arch@ and re@ to see if anyone not on -pkgbase has > > opinions here. > > > > On Wed, Aug 06, 2025 at 05:17:19PM -0400, Mark Johnston wrote: > > > The future of freebsd-update post 15.0 isn't totally clear. There have > > > been proposals to remove it in 15.0. IMO we can't remove it outright, > > > since may be needed in order to upgrade 13.x and 14.x jails on a 15.0 > > > host. It is also a shame to lose a simple upgrade utility that is > > > well-documented and that many users are familiar with; compare > > > "freebsd-update upgrade -r 14.3-RELEASE" with the upgrade instructions > > > on the pkgbase wiki page. > > > > > > pkgbase offers a lot of flexibility but I suspect many users don't need > > > it; they need a one-shot "upgrade my system, please" utility that will > > > automatically create a boot environment, configure pkg repositories as > > > needed for major/minor/security upgrades, fetch packages, and handle > > > package installation order (i.e., kernel first, followed by a reboot). > > Of course. As was said earlier, the whole pkgbase idea in it's current form is > harmful, leading to unexpected breakages etc. after mass deployment, not > mentioning not very good quality of pkg itself. About pkg quality, there is a way to improve that: report issues, contribute code, contribute unit tests etc. > > The whole distinction between base and ports (packages) is (was) major FreeBSD > strength, compared to Linux distros or just plain "zfs delete /usr/local" if > something goes wrong. > > May be freebsd-update will be redone to be just a frontend to pkg, may be > some other way, but the whole wall between base and ports must continue to > exist. > I think it probably should be even special fork of pkg(8) for pkgbase, just as > private (renamed) versions of some ports libraries exist in the base (like > sqlite or expat). sqlite is made to be bundled, in particular we are carefully cherrypicking features, as for expat, pkg does not use expat at all for years (removed in 2020). Best regards, Bapt