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Zeeb" , wireless@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Current , FreeBSD Stable ML , desktop@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e3b9fa0636d45c38" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bCnfj208dz3qtH X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] --000000000000e3b9fa0636d45c38 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jun 5, 2025, 3:25=E2=80=AFAM David Chisnall = wrote: > Thanks, > > I always believe that our stability policies should be things that exist > to improve the experience of downstream folks, not sticks we beat ourselv= es > with. They should adapt with changing needs. > > The main issues with changing network ABIs come from jails. If ifconfig i= n > a 14.x jail doesn=E2=80=99t work in a 15.x jail, that=E2=80=99s a big pro= blem. I wouldn=E2=80=99t > expect this to matter for the WiFi-specific parts. You=E2=80=99re almost = always > configuring some virtual interface in a jail, not the WiFi bits. > Given the choice, I'd trade this being broken for better wifi support. But the rest will work. The proposed ABI breakage is confined to WIFI only. Everything else should just work as they do today. I saw something fly past in phabricator recently for moving these to using > nvlists, is it likely that this will be done for 15 so 16 kernels will be > able to use userland tools from 15? I didn=E2=80=99t see how complete the= patches > were or if they touched the WiFi bits. > > On the KBI side, it would be nice if out-of-tree WiFi drivers could exist > and work across a major release. It sounds as if they simply can=E2=80=99= t usefully > exist at the moment (independent of KBI changes), but it would be nice if > that could be a goal for 16. > Never going to happen. That's not possible today for any module at all. We can't even do minor releases with anything complicated (though some simpler drivers can work with sufficient effort). Warner David > > > On 4 Jun 2025, at 18:52, Bjoern A. Zeeb wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFHello, > > > > Cc: wireless, current, stable, desktop > > > > FreeBSD WiFi development has regained traction. We are facing a > > decision with FreeBSD 15 coming before the end of this year [1]. > > > > In order to continue WiFi development, upcoming changes will inevitably > > break the net80211-driver and net80211-userland interfaces. > > By FreeBSD's standards those would not be mergeable to stable branches, > > such as stable/15 then. > > > > This would imply development happening in FreeBSD 16-CURRENT (main at > > that point) would stay there. The first release to ship anything major > > beyond now would be FreeBSD 16.0 in December 2027 [1]. > > > > After some discussion we think this is not a feasible solution and we > > will declare the KPI and KBI for wireless as unstable in FreeBSD 15. > > > > This allows us to merge changes from main into stable/15 for inclusion > > in future point releases (e.g., 15.1, 15.2, etc.) as the code matures. > > However, this also means that during the lifetime of FreeBSD 15, we may > > introduce breaking changes affecting out-of-tree and in-tree drivers, > > userland-kernel interfaces, and chipsets. We will address these > > disruptions as they arise. > > > > Before finalizing this decision, we invite feedback from the community. > > If you have concerns or objections, please speak up now. > > > > Bjoern (on behalf of the Wireless Development Team) > > Tom > > Adrian > > Ed > > Joe > > > > [1] https://www.freebsd.org/releng/ > > > > -- > > Bjoern A. Zeeb r15:= 7 > > > > --000000000000e3b9fa0636d45c38 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jun 5, 2025, 3:25=E2=80= =AFAM David Chisnall <theraven@f= reebsd.org> wrote:
Thanks,<= br>
I always believe that our stability policies should be things that exist to= improve the experience of downstream folks, not sticks we beat ourselves w= ith. They should adapt with changing needs.

The main issues with changing network ABIs come from jails. If ifconfig in = a 14.x jail doesn=E2=80=99t work in a 15.x jail, that=E2=80=99s a big probl= em. I wouldn=E2=80=99t expect this to matter for the WiFi-specific parts. Y= ou=E2=80=99re almost always configuring some virtual interface in a jail, n= ot the WiFi bits.

<= div dir=3D"auto">Given the choice, I'd trade this being broken for bett= er wifi support. But the rest will work. The proposed ABI breakage is confi= ned to WIFI only. Everything else should just work as they do today.
<= div dir=3D"auto">
I saw something fly past in phabricator recently for moving these to using = nvlists, is it likely that this will be done for 15 so 16 kernels will be a= ble to use userland tools from 15? I didn=E2=80=99t see how complete the pa= tches were or if they touched the WiFi bits.

On the KBI side, it would be nice if out-of-tree WiFi drivers could exist a= nd work across a major release. It sounds as if they simply can=E2=80=99t u= sefully exist at the moment (independent of KBI changes), but it would be n= ice if that could be a goal for 16.

Never going to happen. That's not po= ssible today for any module at all. We can't even do minor releases wit= h anything complicated (though some simpler drivers can work with sufficien= t effort).

Warner
<= div dir=3D"auto">
David

> On 4 Jun 2025, at 18:52, Bjoern A. Zeeb <bz@freebsd.org> wrote:<= br> >
> =EF=BB=BFHello,
>
> Cc: wireless, current, stable, desktop
>
> FreeBSD WiFi development has regained traction.=C2=A0 We are facing a<= br> > decision with FreeBSD 15 coming before the end of this year [1].
>
> In order to continue WiFi development, upcoming changes will inevitabl= y
> break the net80211-driver and net80211-userland interfaces.
> By FreeBSD's standards those would not be mergeable to stable bran= ches,
> such as stable/15 then.
>
> This would imply development happening in FreeBSD 16-CURRENT (main at<= br> > that point) would stay there.=C2=A0 The first release to ship anything= major
> beyond now would be FreeBSD 16.0 in December 2027 [1].
>
> After some discussion we think this is not a feasible solution and we<= br> > will declare the KPI and KBI for wireless as unstable in FreeBSD 15. >
> This allows us to merge changes from main into stable/15 for inclusion=
> in future point releases (e.g., 15.1, 15.2, etc.) as the code matures.=
> However, this also means that during the lifetime of FreeBSD 15, we ma= y
> introduce breaking changes affecting out-of-tree and in-tree drivers,<= br> > userland-kernel interfaces, and chipsets.=C2=A0 We will address these<= br> > disruptions as they arise.
>
> Before finalizing this decision, we invite feedback from the community= .
> If you have concerns or objections, please speak up now.
>
> Bjoern (on behalf of the Wireless Development Team)
> Tom
> Adrian
> Ed
> Joe
>
> [1] https://www.freebsd.org/releng/
>
> --
> Bjoern A. Zeeb=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0r15:7
>

--000000000000e3b9fa0636d45c38--