From owner-freebsd-net@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 17 11:20:22 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-net@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00847E4A; Mon, 17 Nov 2014 11:20:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.digiware.nl (smtp.digiware.nl [31.223.170.169]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C2B7640; Mon, 17 Nov 2014 11:20:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rack1.digiware.nl (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.digiware.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22EF3153408; Mon, 17 Nov 2014 12:20:13 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at digiware.nl Received: from smtp.digiware.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by rack1.digiware.nl (rack1.digiware.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dfIreQrOjHzi; Mon, 17 Nov 2014 12:20:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.101.102] (vpn.ecoracks.nl [31.223.170.173]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.digiware.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4226E153416; Mon, 17 Nov 2014 12:20:01 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <5469D9E1.2060400@digiware.nl> Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 12:20:01 +0100 From: Willem Jan Withagen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh , Craig Rodrigues Subject: Re: RFC: Enabling VIMAGE in GENERIC References: <1423616F-F44D-47E5-8595-DE862DC04464@bsdimp.com> In-Reply-To: <1423616F-F44D-47E5-8595-DE862DC04464@bsdimp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: FreeBSD Net , "freebsd-virtualization@freebsd.org" , freebsd-arch X-BeenThere: freebsd-net@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: Networking and TCP/IP with FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 11:20:22 -0000 On 17-11-2014 12:02, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Nov 17, 2014, at 12:46 AM, Craig Rodrigues > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> PROPOSAL ========== I would like to get feedback on the following >> proposal. In the head branch (CURRENT), I would like to enable >> VIMAGE with this commit: >> >> >> PATCH ====== >> >> Index: sys/conf/NOTES >> =================================================================== >> >> --- sys/conf/NOTES (revision 274300) >> +++ sys/conf/NOTES (working copy) @@ -784,8 +784,8 @@ device >> mn # Munich32x/Falc54 Nx64kbit/sec cards. >> >> # Network stack virtualization. -#options VIMAGE -#options >> VNET_DEBUG # debug for VIMAGE +options VIMAGE +options >> VNET_DEBUG # debug for VIMAGE >> >> # # Network interfaces: >> >> >> >> I would like to enable VIMAGE for the following reasons: >> >> REASONS ======== >> >> (1) VIMAGE cannot be enabled off to the side in a separate library >> or kernel module. When enabled, it is a kernel ABI incompatible >> change. This has impact on 3rd party code such as the kernel >> modules which come with VirtualBox. So the time to do it in CURRENT >> is now, otherwise we can't consider doing it until FreeBSD-12 >> timeframe, which is quite a while away. >> >> (2) VIMAGE is used in some 3rd party products, such as FreeNAS. >> These 3rd party products are mostly happy with VIMAGE, but >> sometimes they encounter problems, and FreeBSD doesn't see these >> problems because it is disabled by default. >> >> (3) Most of the major subsystems like ipfw and pf have been fixed >> for VIMAGE, and the only way to shake out the last few issues is to >> make it the default and get feedback from the community. ipfilter >> still needs to be VIMAGE-ified. >> >> >> (4) Not everyone uses bhyve. FreeBSD jails are an excellent >> virtualization platform for FreeBSD. Jails are still very popular >> and performant. VIMAGE makes jails even better by allowing >> per-jail network stacks. >> >> (5) Olivier Cochard-Labbe has provided good network performance >> results in VIMAGE vs. non-VIMAGE kernels: >> >> >> https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-net/2014-October/040091.html >> >> >> (6) Certain people like Vitaly "wishmaster" have been >> running VIMAGE jails in a production environment for quite a while, >> and would like to see it be the default. >> >> >> ACTION PLAN =========== >> >> (1) Coordinate/communicate with portmgr, since this has kernel >> ABI implications >> >> (2) Work with clusteradm@, and try to get a test instance of one >> of the PF firewalls in the cluster working with a VIMAGE enabled >> kernel. >> >> (3) Take a pass through http://wiki.freebsd.org/VIMAGE/TODO and >> https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=vimage%20or%20vnet >> >> and try to clean things up. Get help from net@ developers to do >> this. > > And if these don’t get cleaned up? > >> (4) Take a pass on trying to VIMAGE-ify ipfilter. I'll need help >> from the ipfilter maintainers for this and some net@ developers. > > And if this doesn’t happen? > >> (5) Enable VIMAGE by default in CURRENT on January 5, 2015. This >> will *not* be enabled in STABLE. >> >> What do people think? > > How do you plan to address the problems seen by FreeNAS in #2 above? > I don’t see that in the action plan. Without it, we’re enabling an > option that has know, serious issue making 11 potentially a more > unstable release. Hi Warner, I think I understand your critique, but then on the other hand I wonder where the reluctance is.... As I read it, things are going to be enabled in CURRENT only (for the time). Which is exactly for the reasons you worry about: Is it going to be reliable enough?? But for that it needs exposure... So I would expect it to be turned off as a default IF things are not in a stable state that warrants a default enabling of the options. Things need to move forward, and taking this step is going to be required.. Otherwise I see a big risk of bit-rot somewhere down in the dungeons. --Willem Jan