From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 8 21:25:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 285881522B; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:25:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02421; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:24:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990908195708.0463db80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 20:37:37 -0600 To: Nik Clayton From: Brett Glass Subject: Good memes vs. good code Cc: Rod Taylor , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990908194548.A89429@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <4.2.0.58.19990908091226.047c96f0@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990907215517.047c9880@localhost> <99090807163506.00470@a11.idiotswitch.org> <4.2.0.58.19990908091226.047c96f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:45 PM 9/8/99 +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: >Brett, > >I think this is where the problem is: > >On Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 09:32:27AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > is that FreeBSD is lacking in good memes, which are more important than good > > code. > >On a very fundamental level, I think a lot of the FreeBSD developers (note, >not necessarily the users) disagree very strongly with that statement. Actually, good memes ARE very important to the FreeBSD developers, because without them, all of that programming is for naught. I'm sure that each contributor has slightly different reasons for taking the time to contribute. However, the most common reasons, as expressed on the mailing lists and elsewhere, include: 1. You like doing good work, and take pride in a job well done; 2. You want others to benefit from using your code; 3. The availability of FreeBSD helps you to perform other tasks or makes your business more successful, so you have a vested interest in making it better; 4. You wish to (or already do) make money supporting or extending FreeBSD. As I mentioned in an earlier message, ALL of these goals are furthered by a larger user base, which in turn is brought about by good memes. More people will know of, appreciate, and benefit from your work. A more popular OS means more improvements and more third party applications, which in turn means a better and more useful OS for you yourself to use. If you make money doing FreeBSD work, you'll have more professional opportunities as well. Without good memes, though, none of these things are possible. Linux -- which does have hardy memes -- will dominate. The percentage of people who see and benefit from your work will shrink. You'll have fewer consulting opportunities (I used to do some OS/2 consulting, and watched my peers who specialized entirely in OS/2 suffer terribly careerwise when it tanked). And you'll likely be buying Linux applications and hoping that they run on your system, where they're unsupported if something goes wrong. Programmers, naturally, put an emphasis on good code and understand its benefits. But an OS is more than just some lines of code; it's a PLATFORM. An environment. With conventions (which are more consistent in BSD than in SysV or Linux; that's one reason why I'm partial to BSD), a user community, a halo of third party developers, and more. To focus only on the code is sort of like caring only about a car's engine and ignoring whether the windshield is cracked, whether the horn and headlights work, whether you can sit on a seat without a loose, rusty spring tearing a hole in your trousers. I'm a competent techie; my specialty is hand-coded assembly language. (This is why you don't see any of my code in FreeBSD, by the way. Contributions to FreeBSD pretty much have to be in C, a language I detest and write only when I must.) But I'm also a writer, an artist, a musician, a businessperson (I manage rental properties, among other things), and an inventor. In short, I'm a generalist, and like to step back and see the "big picture" rather than focusing on just one specialized area. So, you're right -- I may have a perspective that a developer who cares ONLY about code will not have. The people who have argued with me the longest and the loudest on this list have been those who are very code-centric. For example, Jordan Hubbard wrote, in a recent message: >All this talk of dominant memes and subverting the >current paradigm is mere fiddle-faddle when it comes right down to it >becuase it's the front-liners who do the work and the front liners who >I respect. By "front liners," of course, he means the coders. But the development of good memes is actually more important, as is shown by the success of Linux. Development of the memes is, of course, done behind the front lines, while spreading them requires going out and talking to PEOPLE -- not coding. And spending a lot of time in online discussions such as this one. I think that a broader perspective not only has value but is necessary to promote the development of the an operating system as a whole entity (which consists of more than just code). It's even necessary to further the interests of those who focus exclusively on the code. >I doubt that you can change their minds. Many already agree with me. I wish I could convince them to speak up more often instead of sending private e-mail telling me to stick to my guns! In this controversy, I'm very MUCH on the front lines, despite what Jordan says. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message