From owner-freebsd-x11@FreeBSD.ORG Sat May 16 12:00:49 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37CF11065677; Sat, 16 May 2009 12:00:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from james@mansionfamily.plus.com) Received: from relay.pcl-ipout02.plus.net (relay.pcl-ipout02.plus.net [212.159.7.100]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C948FC15; Sat, 16 May 2009 12:00:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from james@mansionfamily.plus.com) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApoEANJADkrUnw6U/2dsb2JhbADQBIQBBQ Received: from fhw-relay07.plus.net ([212.159.14.148]) by relay.pcl-ipout02.plus.net with ESMTP; 16 May 2009 12:31:06 +0100 Received: from [80.229.150.39] (helo=pd600.barnhouse) by fhw-relay07.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1M5I6Z-0004uI-1x; Sat, 16 May 2009 12:31:03 +0100 Received: from [192.168.0.132] (unknown [192.168.0.132]) by pd600.barnhouse (Postfix) with ESMTP id B45203A28E8; Sat, 16 May 2009 12:31:10 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <4A0EA410.5020909@mansionfamily.plus.com> Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 12:31:28 +0100 From: James Mansion Organization: MsgWare User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Windows/20090302) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Noland References: <20090515232350.GH57001@server.vk2pj.dyndns.org> <1242433708.5638.26.camel@balrog.2hip.net> In-Reply-To: <1242433708.5638.26.camel@balrog.2hip.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Plusnet-Relay: 3763aef4586aefc7633b8f8a780dea89 Cc: freebsd-x11@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Whither X? X-BeenThere: freebsd-x11@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: X11 on FreeBSD -- maintaining and support List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 12:00:49 -0000 Robert Noland wrote: > Xorg in general, while some are porting issues. Since I don't see > patches attached, I have to assume that you are ok with that. On the > I thought in general people had grown out of 'send me the patches' but clearly not. Is it not OK to be just a user, and to complain when the system regresses? > Some of the POLA issues that you raise have been discussed on Xorg lists > and have valid reasons for the changes, for at least some value of > valid. The change to libpciaccess is what broke multi-card setups, but > would you argue that the xserver should be doing os specific frobbing of > the pci bus? While this particular issue is being worked on again > lately, the overall number of users that it effects is relatively small. > > From the point of view of a dispassionate observer, it does seem that X.org has moved slowly but significantly from an attempt to keep all its user communities happy to focussing greatly on Linux and caring little if *BSD and *Solaris lack the resources to keep up trying to emulate design decisions that are Linux-centric, then that's just tough. Or so it seems. I don't think anyone can blame you for being a bit defensive Robert. The problem is with X.org. Upstream need to be honest with everyone about how much they care about some of their users. Maybe we will all come to regret that no-one seemed interested in taking the old Scitech SNAP product further when they gave up on it. (http://www.scitechsoft.com/news/press/sale_of_snap.html) Perhaps the answer is to step back and consider whether something akin to the emulation that allows Windows NDIS drivers to run could be fashioned to allow Windows graphics drivers to run - perhaps using recent virtualisation advances to limit the damage they can do. While politically painful on some levels, it does provide for a functional binary compatibility abstraction. Pretty soon most of us will have desktop devices that handle the new x86 virtualization features and it becomes increasingly pointless to hang onto old X terms when you can get hardware like an Aspire Revo for peanuts. I've not looked at building X recently, but if the new build system is so bad, then why not replace it? waf seems handy to me. Its a lot faster than scons, handy to script in Python, and can handle configuration tasks etc. James