From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Feb 19 17:36:07 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47F1214F6806; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 17:36:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.95.76.21]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "troutmask", Issuer "troutmask" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC7F48F9F0; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 17:36:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x1JHZsql001623 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 19 Feb 2019 09:35:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id x1JHZsK3001622; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 09:35:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sgk) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 09:35:54 -0800 From: Steve Kargl To: Cy Schubert Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Pete Wright , "Rodney W. Grimes" , Warner Losh , Baptiste Daroussin , Niclas Zeising , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Stefan Blachmann , Vladimir Kondratyev Subject: Re: What is evdev and autoloading? Message-ID: <20190219173554.GA1066@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Reply-To: sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu References: <201902181650.x1IGoRsZ006131@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> <11a49d72-3158-1b9a-f933-6702d8f5c238@nomadlogic.org> <362D8283-0B7D-402F-99CD-657021597955@cschubert.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <362D8283-0B7D-402F-99CD-657021597955@cschubert.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.11.2 (2019-01-07) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: BC7F48F9F0 X-Spamd-Bar: +++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [3.97 / 15.00]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[21.76.95.128.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.11.2]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[troutmask.apl.washington.edu]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[10]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(0.07)[ip: (0.14), ipnet: 128.95.0.0/16(0.20), asn: 73(0.09), country: US(-0.07)]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:73, ipnet:128.95.0.0/16, country:US]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_SHORT(0.72)[0.719,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[washington.edu]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.98)[0.977,0]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.51)[0.511,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 18:23:20 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 17:36:07 -0000 On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 08:17:48AM -0800, Cy Schubert wrote: > On February 18, 2019 9:17:37 AM PST, Pete Wright wrote: > > > > > >On 2/18/19 8:50 AM, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > >>> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 9:12 AM Rodney W. Grimes < > >>> > >>> I don't know. I think the fact that drm2 doesn't support anything > >newer > >>> than 5-year-old hardware is a pretty convincing evidence that the > >old way > >>> is broken and doesn't work. > >> But it DOES work, I am pretty sure we have 1000's of users on that 5 > >year > >> old hardware that are totally happy with the intree DRM2 that is in > >stable/12, > >> and some of whom have ventured into head/13 are having issues with > >thete a > >> "new" model (ie kmod broken by a base commit). I know that there is > >wip > >> to get CI coverage for that, but wip is wip, and we need to start > >changing > >> the cart horse driver order we keep doing and get things right. Port > >> up and working, with CI testing *before* we go remove kmod'ed code > >from > >> base would be a much more appropriate path. > >> > >> I think one serious problem here is the summary dismissal of things > >> simply on the "5 year old" basis. Not everyone, and infact few now > >> a days other than corporate buyers, can afford new hardware, > >> giving the minimal performance increase in systems over the last 5 > >> years the cost/benifit factor of a new computer is just too low. > >I've put a lot of effort helping test and document how to get a usable > >desktop environment on a modern laptop.  there were two issues which > >motivated me to do this: > > > >1) my observation that many developers at conferences and online were > >using macOS as their primary desktop environment.  when comparing this > >to the OpenBSD and Linux community I felt pretty embarrassed, but it > >did > >explain the stagnant nature of our graphics subsystem.  people seemed > >afraid to touch things due the brittle nature of its hardware support. > > I noticed this too. And every time it struck me as odd. > > > > >2) i was in need to an *affordable* machine with a warranty. > >fortunately > >there are many affordable laptops at staples, best-buy and amazon - but > > > >they were all post haswell systems, rendering them basically useless > >from a FreeBSD perspective. > > Which is why removing drm2 was necessary. > > > > >after trying to get traction to update the in-tree drm subsystem i was > >lucky enough to sync up with the graphics team which was working on > >syncing things up with modern hardware support.  because of that i'm > >now > >able to get my small startup pretty much all on board with FreeBSD.  i > >use it on my workstations as well as on or server infrastructure > >(physical and AWS).  i would consider this a success for our community > >as it's opened up the eyes to a whole new generation of devs to > >FreeBSD. > > > >one thing missing from all of these arguments is real data.  how many > >people are on haswell era hardware?  i can tell from my experience the > >past several years the number of people who have post-haswell gear seem > > > >to be more numerous, or at least more vocal (and frankly easier to work > > > >with while squashing bugs). > > > >i can also say that personally it would be great to improve support for > > > >systems requiring drm2 - but that gear is hard to come by, so we are > >really dependent on helpful collaboration from those who are being > >effected. > > Drm2 is not required. My current laptop is 5 years old, an HD3000. The previous one is 13 years old, i915. Both work perfectly with drm-current on 13-current. Franky, I don't see what the fuss is about. > > My Dell Latitude D530 running i386 freebsd, which used the i915kms.ko now locks up solid with drm-legacy-kmod. The PAE vs non-PAE i386/conf/pmap.h merger in r342567 broke drm-legacy-kmod. It seems that Niclas has provided a patch that fixes the building of drm-legacy-kmod. Doing a bisection on /usr/src commits is fairly slow as it takes a day to build world/kernel and the minimum set of ports need to fire up Xorg. r343543 and earlier appear to work fine with drm-legacy-kmod. I have now lost 2 weeks of hacking time that could have been spent on the missing C99 complex math routines. Yeah, I know very few people care about numerical simulations on FreeBSD. -- Steve