From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 17:58:42 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39F2310B4BAA for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:58:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-it1-x134.google.com (mail-it1-x134.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44A337C1B2 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:58:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-it1-x134.google.com with SMTP id c85-v6so15318972itd.1 for ; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 10:58:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=H4wpBeohmCgTa0t3GpKab3BGtsR+5MKwBOnLIofY5fA=; b=vPVKMu8kofxzG53rI+wpbu8TQ79VdoNOUZ2zpaB6o3rC8ma6rBxCPksqBZTJFQ3FbB KuY/OvIAYmPNhdN3WHsMn9+NH3/cEnJzNbLnVnLPSWnsOd1uGCdc7IQlO2vmHTPo9jeh 20Vei+jMyPZc2W45qlGq0f4V41QguqlEQQh4ukbgu1/tVC9GBYRA9mRTrTa+PxdlJZNw 6gXFcg1CmlXulhpES8pEbwb8TbaFwyzYxoeLvi07vvW6GCHQhQpfaITvC5kWuixoBOf0 aqVA4sEKi6JoXtkdutnp5IYjRDfOFfSwpTWxx7u4A8itCNgfA2Ao0gU0fjieCoVDpFul VUfQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=H4wpBeohmCgTa0t3GpKab3BGtsR+5MKwBOnLIofY5fA=; b=hqHNnI3xhsIZZRAx2D/C+ygGpRO3aCOrk0dMlTtS8+rxUn/5w54wPWhDQ7liFjCt6b 28iM3Z0aMhwOk3O7KNmRKGNELVJMLStSALgyf51ZgtHa2Zs392FK/v/QW1nBJqJMpJkc w9BXLPDgTtsOlrCdMmMB+yzPtGIqCioZcjgq5/i4IFnfKxiDj+SacuI/H5AMXohhLEt8 IcBmWqAWGHi+Y4y9ZTINYGBwJ4+8re0trw9cuVg2BaZm0oV3U2hWQVDoTsi7XaIj7etW xpL9nr+5EAq0W7niRaqKAytcClwBVEwbBqp1eRB3fOcMzydiloBqD9ogoB4+xOjepYB0 6OLA== X-Gm-Message-State: ABuFfoiQr1J/ESZuXpbCVwWd2GF87cxe8llrMvh0pt6ArFTCviaiiqqQ 04adZNrZFqsQqdWOwjYF4rxaayXeUJFLlvwZj6L8Rg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACcGV603OJNJGULvVfKBgz+Z2jKVWYqZtFTXxcSkhpSGe0spX88Y/J3UujQeOtJCk8cEDzHJJRX8BlYF5piCTta3kII= X-Received: by 2002:a24:1c94:: with SMTP id c142-v6mr5963145itc.75.1538675920518; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 10:58:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <55a44e73-60ab-e386-360a-b0a0198a0e71@zyxst.net> <8878cac1-d5d2-4224-6aa5-85516db23c14@sorbs.net> <1538673997.14264.9.camel@freebsd.org> <1538675265.14264.12.camel@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <1538675265.14264.12.camel@freebsd.org> From: Warner Losh Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 11:58:29 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: Ian Lepore Cc: FreeBSD Net , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.27 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 17:58:42 -0000 On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:47 AM Ian Lepore wrote: > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 11:38 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:26 AM Ian Lepore wrote: > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 10:21 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 10:15 AM Michelle Sullivan > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tech-lists wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how common > it is. > > > > > > > > > > > I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to Brooks. Brooks > as > > > > > far as I can see is just the messenger. > > > > > > > > > Absent good data, one has to make one's best guesses. I guessed wrong > > > here > > > > > > > > in my comments to Brooks about which ones were must keeps. I knew it > was > > > > popular back in the day (~2000), but had thought it's popularity had > > > waned > > > > > > > > much more than it apparently has. I last deployed systems with rl in > them > > > > around 2007, and at the time it was trailing edge gear (the SBCs we > used > > > at > > > > > > > > Timing Solutions tended to use popular, but ~5-year-old technology > > > because > > > > > > > > that market segment wanted longevity of spare availability...). > > > > > > > > Warner > > > 11 years later, we (Timing Solutions, now a division of Microchip) are > > > still using SBCs with rl(4) hardware and still shipping software > > > updates with that driver built into the kernel. We build systems with a > > > lifespan in the field of 20 years or more, and the stability and > > > compatibility across OS upgrades over that kind of span is a BIG reason > > > to use freebsd rather than linux for such things. > > > > > OK. I'd have thought those SBCs would have gone out of production years > > ago.... It's a good datapoint to know that there's multiple users of > > FreeBSD using these parts in products that are still shipping. That's a > > clear and compelling benefit to the project that offsets the efforts that > > it's taken them to keep things current with rl. > > > > In this case, though, rl is off the list, so that hardware should still > be > > good. The only other SBC I was aware of at Timing Solutions was one that > > had an 'ed' chip on it (an ISA realtek part IIRC) that was used in around > > 2001, but in a 'one off' custom setup that I don't think will ever be > > upgraded.... But I have to ask since I know how things worked during my > > time there and systems that 'would never be upgraded' often times were > > later... > > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, sn, smc, > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this thread, and > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. > > > > Warner > > I checked all our various kernel configs, and the only one on the list > we still use appears to be rl. > > One driver I was surprised to see was not on the list was vte. So I'll > just preemptively mention that we do use that one too. > I'll assume that you've deployed more than 5 of these systems and that you may someday upgrade them as well? Which of the Vortex86 processors are you using, if you can answer that... Warner