From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Jun 20 07:45:29 2012 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG> Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [69.147.83.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2016C106564A; Wed, 20 Jun 2012 07:45:29 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dougb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (hub.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::36]) by mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EEEC150815; Wed, 20 Jun 2012 07:45:28 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4FE17F98.6030206@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 00:45:28 -0700 From: Doug Barton <dougb@FreeBSD.org> Organization: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:12.0) Gecko/20120430 Thunderbird/12.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Linimon <linimon@lonesome.com> References: <4FDF6177.5050608@unsane.co.uk> <4FDF6586.9060501@gentoo.org> <4FDFB166.2040709@FreeBSD.org> <4FDFB44D.9090308@gentoo.org> <4FE0ADCD.9010109@FreeBSD.org> <4FE0C123.8030301@gentoo.org> <CAGH67wRidMZrzjzTSdwud+Z5V--wOTN8CHXOWcOr+E5XHYo2rA@mail.gmail.com> <4FE0F773.1080403@gentoo.org> <CAGH67wQdb-c0Kf=60rkaJSH8Hd0OjwCi=rQQMzGq8xfp2q7b=Q@mail.gmail.com> <4FE100F9.2050009@funtoo.org> <20120620073920.GA5300@lonesome.com> In-Reply-To: <20120620073920.GA5300@lonesome.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.4.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 11:49:40 +0000 Cc: Garrett Cooper <yanegomi@gmail.com>, "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>, Richard Yao <ryao@gentoo.org>, Vincent Hoffman <vince@unsane.co.uk>, Richard Yao <ryao@funtoo.org>, Nathan Whitehorn <nwhitehorn@freebsd.org>, Outback Dingo <outbackdingo@gmail.com>, openrc@gentoo.org, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Atte_Peltom=E4ki?= <atte.peltomaki@iki.fi> Subject: Re: Replacing rc(8) (Was: FreeBSD Boot Times) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD <freebsd-hackers.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers>, <mailto:freebsd-hackers-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers> List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-hackers-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers>, <mailto:freebsd-hackers-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2012 07:45:29 -0000 I was working on a reply along similar lines, but instead I'll say that i agree 100% with what Mark said, and thanks to him for saving me a lot of time. :) Richard, with all that said if you still are interested in specs for a test program, I'm still willing to help with that. Just let me know. Doug On 06/20/2012 12:39 AM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 06:45:13PM -0400, Richard Yao wrote: >> That is already done in Gentoo FreeBSD, or do you want me to do the >> work for you to integrate OpenRC in the base system? > > We want you to do the work to prove that it is an improvement. Otherwise > it's "just another claim." > > You seem to be missing a couple of principles here, the most important > of which is "first, do no harm." FreeBSD has as one of its underlying > principles not to violate POLA (Principle Of Least Astonishment.) The > corollary is that we don't replace code unless we're convinced (not just > told) that the replacement is a better solution. > > If this makes FreeBSD more conservative than the way other OSes do > things, so be it. > > I'm not trying to be harsh here. What I'm saying is that the burden > of proof is on the person making the claims "it's better" to demonstrate > that it's so. > > Otherwise, there are a zillion PRs with patches already in the database > for committers to pick up and work on. > >> I already have OpenRC in Gentoo FreeBSD. Taking the time to integrate >> OpenRC into FreeBSD would be an inefficient use of my time. Not only >> would I fail to gain any improvements on my systems, but I would divert >> development time from things that do benefit me. > > Then I expect the situation to remain unchanged. > > fwiw, from previous discussions on FreeBSD boot time, ISTR that there > are other places where more time is spent. Some analysis to prove that > indeed the rc subsystem is the dominant term would be a good starting > place. > > mcl >