From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 13 22:58:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B840D37B440 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:58:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA13462; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:58:40 -0700 Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpd1jjdUa; Fri Apr 13 22:58:31 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA05887; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:59:21 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104140559.WAA05887@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Just an observation - MUA's seen in the lists To: mwm@mired.org (Mike Meyer) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 05:59:16 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), kris@catonic.net (Kris Kirby), brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), chip@wiegand.org (Chip Wiegand), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <15063.39576.995081.739592@guru.mired.org> from "Mike Meyer" at Apr 13, 2001 07:32:24 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > No. That is not to the level of ease of use which they require > > of a product which has tehir name on it. Read their guidelines > > on the Microsoft Developer web site, some time. > > Can you provide a URL for the document you're thinking about? There > seem to be a number of things, but I can't find anything with > specific, just general commentary. I'd really be interested in seeing > it, as every time I have to use Windows, I'm amazed at how clumsy and > unfriendly an interface this supposedly "user friendly" system has. Not off the top of my head. I can dig into the "disability usability guidelines" article I received from MS Developer network, if you think you really need it. [ ... training costs already paid by someone else ... ] > That, of course, is why FreeBSD isn't going anywhere in an office. It > can't break the monopoly hold that MS has on the desktop. It's not a monopoly issue. If the training were transferrable to FreeBSD, it would be a non-issue. > > > > Really, FreeBSD is unsuitable for use as an MUA supporting > > > > desktop machine, unless your users are much more sophisticated > > > > than average. > > > I disagree. > > Of course you disagree. You are a geek, not a secretary or a > > stock broker. > > I admit I'm a geek, but I still disagree. Once it's installed and > configured, FreeBSD is perfectly usable by those people. It requires > no more training tha MS-Windows does. It is *perfectly* suitable for > supporting an MUA; there are no technical, usability or even intuitive > issues (but see Raskin on intuition) that make it inferior to > MS-Windows. The only problem it has is that finding people who have > already drunk the MS cool-aid is easy, whereas finding people trained > for some Unix toolset is hard. People _already_ have training on Windows. You're asking me to fork out another $2,500 to train them on a particular application on FreeBSD, where the money I spend is flushed down the toilet, because it's not transferrable to another application in the same niche that runs on FreeBSD (is "F1 = Help"? --- one example). > Sure, the average MS-Windows user can't install or configure the > software on FreeBSD. Then again, the average MS-Windows user can't > install or configure the software on MS-Windows either, so that's sort > of moot. It has nothing to do with installation. It has everything to do with whether or not _your_ tabbed dialogs look and operate exactly like the OS's tabbed dialogs in the control panel, so that once you learn one, you've learned them all. > > > The reason most users use windows is that they get it > > > pre-installed; they don't find it any easier to fix if they have a > > > problem. > > Sure they do: > > 1) Call help desk > > 2) Help desk reinstalls machine or brings you a replacement > > 3) Go back to using the computer as a tool, instead of as > > an ends in itself (like some geek) > > Of course, this isn't an MS-Windows feature. The exact same fix works > in shops that install Unix on desktops. No, it doesn't. I have to learn the UNIX specific keyboard shortcuts. I have to learn how to make the "home" and "end" keys do what I expect them to do, in all their standard/ctrl/alt glory. > > > I have installed linux (around 2 years ago, when the GUI's were > > > much less polished) for people having trouble with their > > > windows machines, and they're continuing to use that linux > > > installation to this day. > > They probably get pissed when they get a PowerPoint presentation, > > Excell spreadsheet, or Word document as an email atttachment. > > That depens on the software that's been installed. Really? I can give you Excel and Word 2000 documents that will crash both KDE apps and StarOffice, and I'll be damned if, when I send you an email with them attached, your Netscape will know about opening the right application, until you beat it over the head with a shovel. > > Or you installed the entire shop that way, and they are a small > > closed shop that doesn't often communicate with other businesses in > > The Real World(tm) > > I'm not positive, but my experience with MS Exchange indicate that > this argument implies everyone working in TRW has to have MS Exchange > as a mail server. I've had more problems with people using > Outlook/Exchange sending me mail with formatting information that > didn't survive Exchange's SMTP gateway than I have with people sending > MS Word docs or similar closed formats. I happen to know the main TRW administrator; I went to school with him (he has a PhD in history) the majority of TRW uses VAX equipment for mail services, and gateways to anything other than that. Ask Wes Peters about "Eric Swedin", if you don't believe me. > > > Netscape for email and web browsing, > > > Staroffice for basic word processing, KDE 1.0 desktop, and they're > > > quite happy. Today, I'd go for FreeBSD with KDE 2.x; I agree that > > > I couldn't ask them to install it themselves, but if I did it for > > > them, I'm quite sure they'll be happy with the end results. > > If I'm buying an $16M package of sub-prime credit loans at a > > rediscounted rate form Credit Suisse-First Boston, you can be > > damn sure that the data they send to me is going to be in the > > form of an Excell spreadsheet. > > And chances are that it'll load into StarOffice just fine. Like hell. I happened to try that with _exactly_ the thing I'm talking about -- a $16M sub-prime credit package purchased from Credit Suisse-First Boston -- and it core dumped. > > If you do business with _anyone_ else using your computers, you > > _can't_ live with a closed shop system. That's jus the way > > business is. > > In other words, to have an open shop, you have to use a closed > system. That's amusing. No. In order to do business, you have to pay the devil his due, and that means running Microsoft products, and business doesn't give a flying whether you like that or not. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message