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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID da7724715183e7b2144ff3128af2c1c5; Wed, 04 Sep 2024 08:44:31 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2024 11:46:24 +0300 From: Anthony Pankov Message-ID: <7533543.20240904114624@yahoo.com> To: "Poul-Henning Kamp" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It's not Rust, it's FreeBSD (and LLVM) In-Reply-To: <202409031532.483FW0If007252@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <202409031532.483FW0If007252@critter.freebsd.dk> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.22645 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34010, ipnet:77.238.176.0/22, country:GB] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4WzGJM0295z4T9b Hello, Few days ago I builded FreeBSD system with WITHOUT_TOOLCHAIN="yes" for use in VM. Then I have a sly idea to use it for poudriere-jail: let integrate llvm18 package to 'installed' dir and we'll have job done. I have no luck. I somehow put llvm18 into 'installed' dir (dir that ws DESTDIR for installworld) via 'pkg' -r but "poudriere bulk" failed to find a compiler. I stuck with googling 'use llvm from ports as default compiler'. This is what about using external toolchain nowtime. After 15+ years of using FreeBSD I came to the viewpoint that 'FreeBSD is src' in a mean that 'src' is a self-sufficent and is able per se to generate ad hoc operating systems. As for 'self-sufficent' I suggest to test any decision with thought experiment: Someone get FreeBSD and build the system (world/kernel). Then he install builded system on servers. After 5 years he return and want to apply a patch and rebuild system. Would he be successful? In case of ports I definetly answer: "No". Ports system told me to set ALLOW_UNSUPPORTED, then ALLOW_INSECURE, then it failed because certificates of sites changed and it didn't know fresh root CAs. May be I just call for little more care for those who prefer long-lived systems. Sorry for interfering in the conversation. Tuesday, September 3, 2024, 6:32:00 PM, you wrote: > What is FreeBSD ? > ----------------- > Forget Rust for the moment, I promise I will come back to it. > FreeBSD as a project was created almost entirely as protest against > the incompetent "UNIX-industry" as it existed around 1990. > One of the stupidities we reacted against, was the unbundling of > the C-compiler: If you bought a UNIX system, the C-compiler would > cost you extra, even through everybody knew that the vendor got it > as part of their source license from AT&T. > So from the very start, FreeBSD decided to deliver "A complete UNIX > system with full source" and the only concession was that, hard > disks costing what they did, you could choose to not install the > manual pages and the source code on systems which did not need them. > ('make world' celebrated 30 years last month! See: 3540f0e14a8) > The only compiler we had source code for was GCC. We would have > preferred a different license, but we had no choice at the time. > There were people who, reasonably, thought that X11 was also part > of a "complete UNIX system", but the reality of 1.2MB "3D-printed > save icons" made that a total non-starter, and therefore the ports > collection is FreeBSD's barely younger twin. > The source tree became our citadel: "FreeBSD is src". If something > was not in src, it was not FreeBSD. > Buildworld or bust. > The fight at the gate was fierce at times. > Delivering a single consistent userland with the kernel has stood > us well for three decades, and we should stick with that. > But the world has changed, and we all know it, which is why ports, > pkg, freebsd-update and pkgbase exist. > A FreeBSD system with no installed ports is a rarity today. > Not even a FreeBSD developers test-machine can avoid git-lite, but > such machines do exist, typically in embedded applications. > But a FreeBSD system recompiling itself from source is even rarer. > And when it does, LLVM, source code we import verbatim from an > entirely different project, and which no sane person would call > "Related to FreeBSD", takes up more than three quarters of the > compile time. > That is objectively absurd. > The only reason we do that, is because we stil have that outdated > "FreeBSD is src" emotional hangup. > We need to find a contemporary and useful answer to "What is FreeBSD?" > The only answer I can think of > ------------------------------ > "FreeBSD is ports (some of those ports contain the kernel and userland)" > As part of the migration, we yank LLVM out of the src. > LLVM does not belong in src by any sane criteria, and any microscopic > benefits of "tight integration" can be delivered with a "toolchain-llvm" > (meta-)port. > Our minimal install images will contain: > The installer > The kernel package(s) > The userland package(s) > "pkg upgrade" also upgrade kernel and userland packages - Welcome to > the century of the fruitbat. > The "normal install images will also contain: > The src package(s) > the source code built into kernel and userland packages > The toolchain package(s) > the package used to build the kernel and userland packages > The ports package(s) > the ports tree used to build the toolchain package(s) > All distribution files necessary to build the toolchain package(s) > (The "toolchain-llvm" (meta-)port may have to be a short-cut, to > not have the llvm port drag in everything and the kitchen-sink, > which would be /precisely/ the same as the llvm which lives in src > today.) > This distribution format is neither more nor less perfect with > respect to reproducible builds and "Reflections on trusting trust" > than what we have today. > And yes, we have ports written in Rust, why do you ask? > Poul-Henning > PS: I overdosed on release work 25+ years ago, and have not been > paying them much attention since, but if this is what the pkgbase > crew has been pushing for more than a decade, we all owe them an > apology. -- Best regards, Anthony Pankov