From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Tue Feb 19 18:59:31 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF41414F9752; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 18:59:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from johalun0@gmail.com) Received: from mail-ot1-x343.google.com (mail-ot1-x343.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::343]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2109B6D57E; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 18:59:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from johalun0@gmail.com) Received: by mail-ot1-x343.google.com with SMTP id v62so27208314otb.3; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 10:59:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:cc:references:to:from:openpgp:autocrypt:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=sgHhCK7nyMQ4j9VWlgKyrcsvP19H0l1xEkjrw3wP21M=; b=JY9NexTjv9UT6/ghzAIl0qRccRPFIOcyAQJyb4BDeyPdEiLN4xp7HB2gLIehSkMkgV EKy5Idc2wa9Zid65x1SPYLRz0AINXvnN2VubG53BAPtnPyDi5IBbusXv5kqiZMgXZqk8 ZBmifrw1kGg4J2EIY5iCYHH0TiaqwfhBKzvSWSwXFg/awcCiDYLBFf+8uLyfHgDSJAsu bCQNufl70U2AMb1VjsWsI5u/lon267ms8XeS2eFY/F9zh+Btk0Eq8rpy2K8+8D592Vlh 1Ux6qKzbWPzm0+AFt4Oxh7OR5shsgNTvTupBdS0ZLy8M3C0thZAPFUSwn/Q8AgXI5y1c duFw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:cc:references:to:from:openpgp:autocrypt :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=sgHhCK7nyMQ4j9VWlgKyrcsvP19H0l1xEkjrw3wP21M=; b=jtZvaJql/9Ij0Z63NEMMuiblhwb4hgtAGRkyWfvHB33UCeSXfnwj6dbyiYPdbkgFLu xx8jts/7W56bKtcKrpTx08Avv4VZ2AT75LuCp656odMRu7oHIGdWg63YsJZ5asxvkWs9 sm2YCcvUXeGhz53zayvOpk/FrDnS892jvpLFtz6K+ZCD5MMpRbTP6Ttenls3KJAGp5bT wJbAvZjanBULXYIc7/ECd8lU9bsPq9R75JBcLtnExmBW3jqsQQlhiVMGExvHBkjoQALj uEZ9riKYiZgpRkcvN6fvVg4UUAWGdTcMEFX4OwT6LhxnE6jS4CmZeT4+9ynPVmjzorYV rOLQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAubLVnXuSno4ef8k9EvX27cCznE3ZQZVcB1ZGieIThvsRdodUEvy gS6RaLMvBC9qbuW+IyOdpZ+5RngjYik= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IYDVfXS/tFtwd6ofztBzVydL64vTQQeSNoLN7biEnXCuRxmpb8S6lYgE0ouHz6o2en/u8g0yQ== X-Received: by 2002:a9d:2963:: with SMTP id d90mr19459819otb.286.1550602769200; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 10:59:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.33] ([81.174.250.12]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k100sm3463224otk.5.2019.02.19.10.59.27 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 19 Feb 2019 10:59:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: What is evdev and autoloading? Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Steve Kargl References: <201902181650.x1IGoRsZ006131@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> <11a49d72-3158-1b9a-f933-6702d8f5c238@nomadlogic.org> <362D8283-0B7D-402F-99CD-657021597955@cschubert.com> <20190219173554.GA1066@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> To: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" From: Johannes Lundberg Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=johalun0@gmail.com; keydata= mQINBFxFmoIBEADoFO5jY+Fmsg44KiZjufEmpEf4kt7nCOfxNG9SruWpoXUaq0B296F+fIZC hNZqv1v7lGTsfoWRusxJmLd5CQgHHxEyruZbbPpNsQ/JKoDY3GGmrmWfN/SX3y0t0kdB9HsW mJcvZhK7we52f4gxddIVBS9nQoVoONX+hzXf8zwOAa0ik0EPgEwpIKS4j9lLq4bU+mqVKdRR bPeDujEA/qbsCKhaFJkPzXZtzEe6srq4RK1doEztwnKz02b+8gs642TRkWDQeTRZputrAaoN Un4R76A1QpXWyrFG1dQu48IGHi3KbkrvNyq6R1aUBIA0+CG1npIbxmc2mtSjoyvdipmDRbBD +mhECIxmYfBT6818zuj91XjrfOyfVdV2BryBvqFkJLkS3N3QElBIiVdDgdrqiNFWiOlDMxNI tdP16oQBNo8IB27/0YHpnQEw1MafZv5gG5DO0zLtLy88ASAfL7BYf90JP19rT4JIwnxsXxyv kEJnzhsXf0QVObEiAu1MqeFyWfZ8PpunmvEmJ0VChOL+v/kIx1E9cxhhzMZhqiMXfyM4zx2+ BF1FwAwJYPuJLu2B3L0uVBu+M1YvSOmKAbXPDP8PsqPjgSBTYI51MUjuuxN6jSsHDuK6G5k4 pUWR8axa+wafhd6Vz8zVwdTJZ9LdxgLLVg0kprBgccPHhPAZVQARAQABtCZKb2hhbm5lcyBM dW5kYmVyZyA8am9oYWx1bjBAZ21haWwuY29tPokCVAQTAQgAPhYhBIl1Pb3+hI60ivmRSULn yG4BGvSeBQJcRZqCAhsjBQkJZgGABQsJCAcCBhUKCQgLAgQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEELnyG4B GvSe9O0P/RzeQAu1R37RlONZTXNn+qIAHvHbZEhzrCibzaZnwYdC31wGrYmXNDyiQIqOngFf QJuufQtH/+95OESJsjR+42L/pNfFdaEWxiI003qE7uCMzLK5UWUXd/5d5vYY0CaPyNCj1tyM ZIq7x4CaR3QLTh/Fw4zMUI/ZPH2S5SxVFGv0ZZFAdNYILD3qCkAS/9HmXsqufBWbfutA8TTf wyJfywmvf7ENjlZ4QOjb242ZY9NndqbmqTgWVAws+PN5e9AT8HkadscCTCSkYnxJyYG2El27 DpAAkekYplb/C0j82KSz2fy9RgwD+tTqt88DJOeFbIbrYt44u7KLHpzaZeqyUtn0reHCkE0W lnKH2kXXbuswFB4sONxI/J5+qSmOsAm5ItO3voyjm/swpmFR1yBlxo4th26gbO5NfBOK9YsY zHKgiRDv6ZdnHo+htphRxcCDHsFPzkQe5jouI25dvMZYl1LaTS/09lwYVwVIB2SFmMtFZ7rB N4NBSzPlpsg+g4dJNqiw6Rfa2Q/wUv+MzTJgLtHjDccXlpm33Nc09UytHFtNn26PO/zrM39r TwzdLu1mg0x2WWEWTIqe4CaczQU9SIg49BSyJNoPSZx3V7nMhTKbOeQKR5aV3dXI66aENw86 pa1tipuUKCPmope/GTJatUgPiD3JkyiD+7c1zQX2UAGmuQINBFxFmoIBEACb55RAkM59huAx 4Ddd8WBjsw25qf7rzxeRKAQ7or/8LvJBYQDPXZy0RhkRiu+P+MjxwGb6HVh+LDyAYDn9d8Mt ZqCP/dOGNcl7pkb6IhfRc3i5neckXCYfbm0cigiX9JkqZSt3KT96zbjCxsFZKyIyEFsMl46q 7wKWK5Irj3zxV/Z51JNTJyMLcIRWhY8G6qlMNFgZkz2Hv63w6BRekKVImOmOdThLAscy5ybq 2CIUeAwPG7lMYG9rgcPdn3tMPeWlLmUmi5pSwOQ3AKg3xFrW3WfegjRHdqpeuXoeTjYPPCW4 gyl59uv6E12a6eivItCxj67vlBXgOr4um+zoPyXG/WfidIFtWaEgyBrlGR1Klk7SIcqjEHUA FdiM+PweY4opHXXKn60NOZCqBJ59K43drOQgRouz8E2T3yEoYg40xAfY3lhJV/Vx5+kSTjmy sT2xotlPn/GzfaAEvNuJDK+Mec3LvfbbDoOWFolNyEvoMQqF5Q3A8eGqYsoVGBPxyzNvF2iY LkymxiXpgrSN0Q/LOK7pFlWwbVC8Z6g5I0J9ecgD55dGLoX2luLir787XX/JxGffzbRnP9NE ifenJGrQmx4CyEaz/CHQqSbROm5Uo/YFUX9J7OfUO4mtu90j773j32I3psey/Fz3EC/A2PHv Ghb0KsWYpS3Pj5TV1gGyswARAQABiQI8BBgBCAAmFiEEiXU9vf6EjrSK+ZFJQufIbgEa9J4F AlxFmoICGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQQufIbgEa9J7qOQ//YG/4e69YTSjtiYLXzBI8tRU2Sx+NFByx zx+C/r0EBThLtgRwCqEUZRB7iIDSO8aZ0Qa3vwWRohlD1tn/LBdDFfMmuQkNVdLIrjBoGBB9 B5xHdZJ9xnTZEwpTtk6IWolT4j+8rpGemGKKiFo3X6l02On4Qb4iM7h6rcDb76mfwooNYzB3 8PPcLvyOWb/9iCXAb5N7doo5zmOl15DVwvIF04eXU0q1FFj/iS1zNmtZ5Got82O1TQFV+de4 Rb3YA80IZhhhCiHHJqkMKeKQogRqU+UNDBARUBxfUtKsJtQzTQ2JUGwkb6X6bx53FTLP6O9q hDoODVweE1LdB1k1H5Nn+gawPdRMBqj43Y2amK7KEgoTBrwU04CLpKiaAC0S+EcJFfJcwtpK k3F+uTtP/hnhFnWbn8SgRkHKXKWqSCt63NstXhMzAJut1gEzV+CcPNKqa/sFgQaYEvzCS5Kl F/PXj0++f3TIFqT+2ZNNp8Bz8dT7gh8RPPg5oYQiCHH8K1RAmq7gKqmwyg0qgOazHnped+od X4f3qx320JAP6NP9wglDm6eht48NJzb0sffN8z34wrP66oz8oPKtS5CFV0m/384hEg0lmi3W wo2Hno7rA1etTPJX0dI6/GLlQDtNTHvKQ077HQdWVOMQVWC9j7YH7Zr9NjtOvxcNVRX3fxpJ 6CE= X-Tagtoolbar-Keys: D20190219185925981 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 18:59:26 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20190219173554.GA1066@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 2109B6D57E X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=JY9NexTj; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of johalun0@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::343 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=johalun0@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.44 / 15.00]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: alt3.gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.12)[-0.117,0]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com.dwl.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.998,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; IP_SCORE(-0.31)[ip: (3.08), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.60), asn: 15169(-1.98), country: US(-0.07)]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[3.4.3.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 18:59:31 -0000 On 2/19/19 5:35 PM, Steve Kargl wrote: > On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 08:17:48AM -0800, Cy Schubert wrote: >> On February 18, 2019 9:17:37 AM PST, Pete Wright = wrote: >>> >>> On 2/18/19 8:50 AM, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: >>>>> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 9:12 AM Rodney W. Grimes < >>>>> >>>>> I don't know. I think the fact that drm2 doesn't support anything >>> newer >>>>> than 5-year-old hardware is a pretty convincing evidence that the >>> old way >>>>> is broken and doesn't work. >>>> But it DOES work, I am pretty sure we have 1000's of users on that 5= >>> year >>>> old hardware that are totally happy with the intree DRM2 that is in >>> stable/12, >>>> and some of whom have ventured into head/13 are having issues with >>> thete a >>>> "new" model (ie kmod broken by a base commit). I know that there is= >>> wip >>>> to get CI coverage for that, but wip is wip, and we need to start >>> changing >>>> the cart horse driver order we keep doing and get things right. Por= t >>>> up and working, with CI testing *before* we go remove kmod'ed code >>> from >>>> base would be a much more appropriate path. >>>> >>>> I think one serious problem here is the summary dismissal of things >>>> simply on the "5 year old" basis. Not everyone, and infact few now >>>> a days other than corporate buyers, can afford new hardware, >>>> giving the minimal performance increase in systems over the last 5 >>>> years the cost/benifit factor of a new computer is just too low. >>> I've put a lot of effort helping test and document how to get a usabl= e=20 >>> desktop environment on a modern laptop.=C2=A0 there were two issues w= hich=20 >>> motivated me to do this: >>> >>> 1) my observation that many developers at conferences and online were= =20 >>> using macOS as their primary desktop environment.=C2=A0 when comparin= g this=20 >>> to the OpenBSD and Linux community I felt pretty embarrassed, but it >>> did=20 >>> explain the stagnant nature of our graphics subsystem.=C2=A0 people s= eemed=20 >>> afraid to touch things due the brittle nature of its hardware support= =2E >> I noticed this too. And every time it struck me as odd. >> >>> 2) i was in need to an *affordable* machine with a warranty. >>> fortunately=20 >>> there are many affordable laptops at staples, best-buy and amazon - b= ut >>> >>> they were all post haswell systems, rendering them basically useless = >> >from a FreeBSD perspective. >> >> Which is why removing drm2 was necessary.=20 >> >>> after trying to get traction to update the in-tree drm subsystem i wa= s=20 >>> lucky enough to sync up with the graphics team which was working on=20 >>> syncing things up with modern hardware support.=C2=A0 because of that= i'm >>> now=20 >>> able to get my small startup pretty much all on board with FreeBSD.=C2= =A0 i=20 >>> use it on my workstations as well as on or server infrastructure=20 >>> (physical and AWS).=C2=A0 i would consider this a success for our com= munity=20 >>> as it's opened up the eyes to a whole new generation of devs to >>> FreeBSD. >>> >>> one thing missing from all of these arguments is real data.=C2=A0 how= many=20 >>> people are on haswell era hardware?=C2=A0 i can tell from my experien= ce the=20 >>> past several years the number of people who have post-haswell gear se= em >>> >>> to be more numerous, or at least more vocal (and frankly easier to wo= rk >>> >>> with while squashing bugs). >>> >>> i can also say that personally it would be great to improve support f= or >>> >>> systems requiring drm2 - but that gear is hard to come by, so we are = >>> really dependent on helpful collaboration from those who are being >>> effected. >> Drm2 is not required. My current laptop is 5 years old, an HD3000. The= previous one is 13 years old, i915. Both work perfectly with drm-current= on 13-current. Franky, I don't see what the fuss is about. >> >> > My Dell Latitude D530 running i386 freebsd, which used the > i915kms.ko now locks up solid with drm-legacy-kmod. The PAE vs > non-PAE i386/conf/pmap.h merger in r342567 broke drm-legacy-kmod. > It seems that Niclas has provided a patch that fixes the building > of drm-legacy-kmod. > > Doing a bisection on /usr/src commits is fairly slow as it > takes a day to build world/kernel and the minimum set of ports > need to fire up Xorg. r343543 and earlier appear to work fine > with drm-legacy-kmod. So it's not only a build error, it's also a runtime bug that would have happened even with drm2 in base? Hmm.. > > I have now lost 2 weeks of hacking time that could have been spent > on the missing C99 complex math routines. Yeah it sucks when you have to get your hands dirty and actually contribute yourself to keep the code you use alive and no one else does it for you... How many hours do you think we have lost dealing with all the whining and complaining on the mailing list where we instead could have done productive work? > Yeah, I know very few > people care about numerical simulations on FreeBSD.=20 >