From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 26 6:51: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ren.detir.qld.gov.au (ns.detir.qld.gov.au [203.46.81.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7C9E14CB7 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 06:50:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.detir.qld.gov.au; id XAA14642; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 23:49:57 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.detir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) by ren.detir.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma014625; Tue, 26 Oct 99 23:49:34 +1000 Received: from atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (atlas.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.8.9]) by ogre.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA11110 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 23:48:38 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (nymph.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.10.10]) by atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA01035 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 23:48:38 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (localhost.detir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1]) by nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA16538; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 23:48:37 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from syssgm@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au) Message-Id: <199910261348.XAA16538@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: Need anti-exchange ammunition Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 23:48:37 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG First, thanks to those who have responded so far. What I've seen is enough to show me that there are troubled times ahead. But none of it will convince the "opposition", for want of a better word. I'm still hoping for more extreme evidence. Forgive me if I don't attribute everyone. You'll be able to spot your own bits. Cost. Normally a strong point, you'd think. But I believe we are in the position of already having paid. We'd have to un-pay. Very rare thing for the Government. Leads to finger pointing, and nasty letters in the paper. So, I think exchange will replace CCMail here, but I'm hoping to stop it spreading too far. The high cost of Exchange and the big iron needed to run it might just stop the onrushing tide before it engulfs the mail hub, but it is unlikely to stop it anywhere else. In fact, the whole thing has been sold as a money saving operation. But not from equipment or software costs, but administration costs. For this sort of thing, management are utterly convinced that point and click is better than a command line interface. After all, they have no idea what to do with a command line interface, and their Unix jockeys are way expensive. Ergo, in with the GUI, out with the CLI! To summarise that point (because I'm sure we could have a big advocacy storm on this one if we really wanted), the reasoning goes like this: expensive people use CLI, cheap people use GUI, so let's buy a lot of GUI software. It's not really about sendmail vs exchange. Someone asked about sizing. We have approximately the same number of Unix server admins as Novell server admins, and about twice as many Unix boxes as Novell boxes. This is partially because the existing mail system is CCMail, and that keeps them busy repairing it all the time. A couple NT boxes have appeared under the guise of pilot studies. There are a whole heap of PC support people who manage desktops and do the user hand holding stuff. Our current mail system supports about 1500 people. We know we could do the lot with imap and a couple FreeBSD boxes (distributed over the state), but I've discovered that the killer argument is that the mail program must come with a scheduler/organiser, just like CCMail. Again, management are utterly convinced that scheduling and mail are the same stuff. They can point to CCMail and say "We want one just like this, except that works". We have nothing to offer, calendar wise. Suggestions solicited! The argument about broken Exchange systems being hard to repair because of embedded SIDs is enough to keep me away, but not compelling at a higher level. A manager says, "Mail administrator! Fix that box!" and their work is done. They do that already with CCMail. Nice try though. I'll use it against some irritating opposition techies. Someone mentioned NDS. This is the new wonder product, I'm told. We are getting it here in a big way, and it will link in with Exchange too. Apparently it will replace all our account login details on every system in our entire organisation, and will replace DNS and DHCP. Phew! That's another story though, and we are well advanced in arguing against it. Still, if anyone has any reason to believe that NDS distributed replication doesn't work, I'm all ears. :-) In fact, the "Save Our DNS/DHCP" campaign is the only thing to bear fruit so far. Partially it's because of my catchy slogan: "It's a text file. And we *love* it!" referring to the plain text config files which we use for everything, and which we revision control and grep etc, vs the difficulty of doing anything sensible with a GUI. The slogan is so catchy that I've convinced a layer or two of management to fight our cause. In the "you win some, you lose some" situation, I'll keep the DNS, DHCP and password file, and lose the mail system, if I have to. Stephen. PS We're dropping in on an Exchange "success story" tomorrow. If you have any really pointed questions I can ask, feel free to send them in. Ta! I've got a few myself, and I'll let you know if anything fun happens. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message